The genetics of blue eyes in a QH? - Page 2
   

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The genetics of blue eyes in a QH?

This is a discussion on The genetics of blue eyes in a QH? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Shaped markings on horses
  • APHA sabino horse

 
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    02-05-2011, 07:51 PM
  #11
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke    
Ok thanks guys! I always wondered how try popped up!

NdAppy, once again I'm checking hf from my phone and cannot post a direct link to her pedigree but I know it's on allbreedpedigree.com and her name is Playgirls Got Blues.
Posted via Mobile Device
Whoops should have clarified. I meant Macabre's mare.

I looked at your girl's pedigree when you posted this.
     
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    02-05-2011, 09:06 PM
  #12
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudsMystique    
Technically, any horse with any white facial or leg marking carries a pinto gene.
Were you including Sabino in the pinto category? I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that scientists were trying to prove that 100% of facial/leg markings (other than those on a regular ol' pinto, obviously) are caused strictly by the sabino gene.

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
     
    02-05-2011, 09:17 PM
  #13
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by hflmusicislife    
Were you including Sabino in the pinto category? I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that scientists were trying to prove that 100% of facial/leg markings (other than those on a regular ol' pinto, obviously) are caused strictly by the sabino gene.

(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)
Sabino is a type of overo, just like frame and splash.

What you're saying doesn't really make sense to me. Are you saying that a classic frame or splash or tobiano with white on their face or legs is never caused by sabino - but white on the face and legs of solid horses always is?

I think a most facial and leg markings on solid horses are caused by sabino, but I think some are caused by frame and splash as well. Otherwise it would be as common to see frame and splash with no face white as it is to see tobiano with no face white. And I've never seen a splash or a frame with a solid face.
     
    02-05-2011, 09:26 PM
  #14
Weanling
Macabre,
The APHA (American Paint Horse Association) as well as the earlier registries which combined to form APHA were not always closed to just registered QH and TB breeding-- early on, they registered stock type horses with the proper markings-- known pedigrees were not always required. The hardship option which allowed horses with unknown ancestry to be APHA registered did not close until 1986, IIRC.

Now, MOST of the Paint bloodlines trace back to QH.... however there are definitely Paint horses which do not trace 100% to QH/TB ancestry, but which have lines which terminate in unknown ancestry. This would be the case with tobiano Paints-- also some Paints have overo (frame, sabino, etc.) lines which originated from an unregistered horse of unknown breeding.

Here is a very well known old sire whos overo dam traces off into unknown-

Yellow Mount Paint

Because of this line which terminates in unknown, descendants of Yellow Mount are not able to be dually regstered with AQHA, no matter how much of the rest of their pedigree is QH.

Here is another well known Paint stallion-- a tobiano this time-- the tobinao ancestry behind Soft Music and the overo ancestry behind Dual Image trace off into unknown-- so another Paint whos ancestry is not 100% QH or TB, and whos descendants are not AQHA eligible.

Sacred Indian Paint

Here's another tobiano-- racing sire this time-- the tobiano behind Jody Bar (along with what appears to be an unregistered TB) trace to unknown.

Sky Bug Bingo Paint

Now of course the majority of these tobianos' pedigrees is AQHA, but the tobiano portion is not AQHA. If you research the pedigree of your tobiano filly I bet that her tobiano ancestry trails off to an unknown/unregistered ancestor as well.
     
    02-05-2011, 09:28 PM
  #15
Green Broke
Clouds I think the general consensus is that lumping Splash, Frame and Sab together as overo is becoming outdated since each does different things.

As far as white markings, until there is a test that proves it, theories are all we have. There are horses with leg white and face white that look very splashy without looking sabby IYKWIM? Without a test for splash, and with only a test for Sab1, it is impossible to tell if both or neither are creating the face and leg white. Then you have to factor in the theories that support white suppression genes. We can test for frame, so can rule out frame causing leg white, since it tends to leave legs solid on it's own.
     
    02-05-2011, 10:18 PM
  #16
Yearling
IN MY OPINION....

MOST of the white facial markings on otherwise SOLID horses are caused by Splash and Sabino and possibly Dominate White. A good percentage I think are also caused by Overo, but not as commonly as Splash or Sabino.
Tobiano is also the cause, though quite rarely, of white on the legs but no white on the face. Usually these horses are OBVIOUSLY Tobiano, however.

In SPOTTED horses, most Overo's aren't really 100% Overo, but Overo + Sabino. IMO, Overo doesn't produce stockings, Sabino does. Overo doesn't produce milk chins. Sabino does.

I'll find a few examples of what I'm talking about here. I hope this is clear :)

All photos are copyright of their respective owners, and are used here as example/educational purposes only

Quarter Horses
From left to right: Splash, Overo, Sabino


???
Overo


???
Splash


??? - Probably a QH
Splash


Draft or Gaited
Sabino


???
Sabino (note also the milk chin)


Quarter Horse
100% Overo, he MAY carry Sabino/Splash/Tobiano but he only SHOWS Overo. Note how the white markings are limited to the middle of the horse, do not cross the topline, and his blaze does not extend down past the chin.


Quarter Horse
Overo + Sabino. Note the high, unusually shaped stockings (very common of Sabino's, I can bring several examples of this in MINIMALLY marked Sabino's) and the milk chin. He is mostly Overo but Sabino got a little boogey-woogey in there too.


My reasoning
SPLASH -
In it's minimal form, small or slightly unusual stripes, stars and snips. Blue eyes may or may not be present. In more loud form, the face head is often all white and the markings are semi-crisp.

OVERO -
Larger blazes that do not extend down to the lower lip. Remember that we are are talking about solid colored horses here. Blue eyes may or may not be present, though probably not horses that are not loudly expressed.

SABINO -
Large to medium blazes or bald-faces that extend to the lower lip, aka, milk chin.

DOMINATE WHITE -
Very, very tricky. These gene probably mimics Sabino. Sabino White and Dominate White are easily confused because they are so alike.
Dominate Whites have pink skin and brown eyes, but some alleles produce a colt that mimics Sabino.
To quote,
W5 is found in Thoroughbreds descending from Puchilingui, a 1984 stallion with sabino-like white spotting and roaning.[2] Horses with the W5 allele exhibit a huge range in white phenotype: a few have been pure white or near-white, while others have sabino-like spotting limited to high, irregular stockings and blazes that covered the face. Twenty-two members of this family were studied, and the 12 with some degree of dominant white spotting were found to have a deletion in exon 15.

I love genetics :) Don't even get me started on the Vienna gene in rabbits, which is VERY interesting. This is obviously just the surface of Overo, Sabino, Splash, and Dominate White. There is much more involved-ESPECIALLY in Splash.
     
    02-05-2011, 10:31 PM
  #17
Yearling
It's also my opinion that small markings, such as small, crisply marked cornet bands, socks, and stockings are usually caused by Splash. Stockings may also be caused by Tobiano, and jagged/unusual ones by Sabino.
     
    02-05-2011, 10:41 PM
  #18
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
Not true. A Paint is nothing more then a Quarter Horse with spots they decided they didn't want to register as Quarter Horses all those years ago. So every tobiano Paint has QH ancestory, and even tobiano can hide in a minimal sense. I am not sure how it applies to Appaloosa though, I've never seen a tobiano Appaloosa. To find tobiano ALONE is fairly rare, but my Paint filly has tobs carrying tobiano to make it down to the Paint genes.

Not AQHA, APHA or ApHc tobiano (minimal showing how it could be missed) and appaloosa in coloring:

My favorite guy who was recently purchased (not by me I wish) from Arrowrock Spanish Mustangs:





It's relevant because the QH (some lines more than others) at one time had a large dose of Spanish blood which gave tobiano, app, splash, frame, DW and sabino coloring
     
    02-05-2011, 11:03 PM
  #19
Yearling
There WAS a Tobiano Appaloosa living across the street from me. He 'grayed' off to the point where only his black butt spots showed. He started out as a Tobiano with a dash of Splash, I believe, with spots. Then his Tobiano slowly vanished over time :)
     
    02-05-2011, 11:24 PM
  #20
Weanling
AGH! I hate grey it is a color killer
     

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