How are roaning and sabino linked? Or are they? - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 02-17-2014, 11:53 PM Thread Starter
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How are roaning and sabino linked? Or are they?

So I was reading the thread on blue eyes and how they are inherited and it made me want to ask this question I have been wondering about.

How is it that some sabinos are heavily roaned and others are not? Is it a different form of sabino or what?

I was talking to a friend about this, who breeds Paints, and she didn't seem to know what I was talking about when I mentioned that sabino seems to be linked to roan. Obviously there are tons of sabinos that are NOT roan, but there are also quite a few sabinos that are.

And then I read something in the blue-eye thread about sabino1 and Tennessee Walking Horses, and that breed definitely has a lot of roaned out sabinos. But so do Clydesdales and Shires and they are not supposed to have the sabino1 gene.

So why are some sabinos heavily roaned and some just have 4 white socks, a blaze, and maybe a belly spot?

(Note, when I say "roan" I know that is not the same as a true, dark headed roan. I just don't know what else to call the sabino roans.)

So here are some examples I found on Google to illustrate what I'm talking about. Why do some sabinos seem to be linked with roaning and others do not?

Roaned sabinos:
Sabino Spotting in Horses | 'Homecoming' Blog

http://globalhorseculture.typepad.co.../28/sabino.jpg

http://www.genomia.cz/podklady/sabino1_eq.jpg

Non-roaned sabinos:

http://globalhorseculture.typepad.co...stnut_arab.jpg

http://www.genomia.cz/podklady/sabino2_eq.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...dale_horse.jpg

Upon looking for photos to post as examples, I also found a lot of horses that did not fit neatly into either catagory. So what's up with roan and sabino anyway?
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post #2 of 19 Old 02-18-2014, 01:26 AM
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Well, there is no "easy" answer, because we haven't isolated all the genes, so can't say for certain what is going on with each and every horse.

HOWEVER - the "easy" answer is that roan and sabino (at least, sabino 1, the only one we have isolated) are mutations of the same gene. Also included on this gene is tobiano and all the DW we have found so far. They are all mutations of the KIT locus. So it is not surprising to see similarities in the way the genes express, as well as differences.

Let's have a look


Puchilingui, a DW TB stallion. He is tested and verified as DW.


A tested sabino 1 mare.


Tobiano with "cat tracks" and haloing.


"Classic" roan (and fricking gorgeous!).

As you can see, these all have similar phenotypes when you are looking for similarities Same as classic bay, brown and wild bay, or pearl and cream.

Mods, grant me the serenity to see the opinions I cannot change, courage to change the ones that should change, and the wisdom to spot the trolls.
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post #3 of 19 Old 02-19-2014, 10:12 AM
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My mare is classic roan and I just sent her hair in to see if she carries sabino, if she does it's VERY minimal. Sabino and roan (and tobiano) are located on the same locus (KIT) so a horse can be roan and sabino, but homozygous for neither.
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post #4 of 19 Old 02-19-2014, 10:37 AM
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Subbing.

It makes sense that they would be linked.
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The sensitivity of the internet baffles me.
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post #5 of 19 Old 02-19-2014, 11:13 AM
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It's interesting, looking at my baby..



Moderate sabino overo



Bred to a minimal sabino, no overo, no ticking



Created a sabino, overo (she's registered overo, but I haven't had her tested for frame yet to see if she is a definitive frame overo), extensive ticking/white hairs throughout and belly lacing.

I always thought the extra "roaning" was more a factor of rabicano than actual roan? I love learning about sabinos though so I'll follow this thread. They are a mystery.


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post #6 of 19 Old 02-19-2014, 12:04 PM
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oh var oh I would call that last mare a rabicano.
I have an arabian mare with the same markings in her flank and between her forelegs. She produced a very loud rabicano filly this year and has produced two very loud black rabicanos. Shalom
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post #7 of 19 Old 02-19-2014, 12:26 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys for the info!

I would be curious if this first horse below is sabino AND frame, or just sabino. Because if it is just sabino, then can sabino kind of mimic the spot pattern of frame, but with lacy edges? BUT if he is sabino AND frame, does sabino cause the frame spots to be lacy???

I actually see quite a few photos of paints with similar markings. And I always assumed they were frame. But frame alone (so they say) doesn't cause face and leg white. So obviously sabino is happening too. So if you get a roaned out "frame," I wonder if that is what sabino does to frame (makes the edges of the spots lacy), OR is it sabino alone causing this pattern?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oh vair oh View Post
It's interesting, looking at my baby..



Moderate sabino overo



Bred to a minimal sabino, no overo, no ticking



Created a sabino, overo (she's registered overo, but I haven't had her tested for frame yet to see if she is a definitive frame overo), extensive ticking/white hairs throughout and belly lacing.

I always thought the extra "roaning" was more a factor of rabicano than actual roan? I love learning about sabinos though so I'll follow this thread. They are a mystery.
Hmm. I have a theory! Could your baby above be both rabicano AND sabino? Because she definitely looks sabino (due to the extensive white markings) but dbarabians feels she is rabicano due to personal experience, and I can kind of see a "coon" tail on her too. So maybe she is both?

Genetics are fascinating, aren't they?
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post #8 of 19 Old 02-19-2014, 01:20 PM
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I'm sure she is rabicano and sabino, both pretty minimal. So I'm guessing if she didn't have rabicano, she would be as solid as her mother is? If she had more overo characteristics, would her spots look like her fathers? Maybe this is a question for another thread, but is rabicano connected to the roan pattern as well? Hm...



Last edited by oh vair oh; 02-19-2014 at 01:26 PM.
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post #9 of 19 Old 02-19-2014, 01:52 PM
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all 3 of my rabicanos have belly spots and probably could be registered as pinto. Since Arabians are not true roans IMO and from reading the forum it seems sabino and rabicano are indeed linked.
From what I am observing in my breeding program you do need one rabicano parent to get a rabicano.
I have limited experience with this and am no way an expert like chillaa and ndappy as well as a few others. I will humbly bow to their superior knowledge if I am incorrect. Shalom
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post #10 of 19 Old 02-19-2014, 06:34 PM
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Roan has nothing at all do with sabino. Just because they share some of the same effects does not mean they are the same gene.
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