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Improving chances for a buckskin foal?

15K views 55 replies 13 participants last post by  verona1016 
#1 · (Edited)
So if - IN THEORY - I wanted to breed Spirit, what is the best path for the best chance of a buckskin fillie? She's palomino, her dam was palomino, her sire was sorrel. Only Chiilaa know how to post her pedigree as I haven't learned how yet. Her registration # is 4735453, born Hard As A Gem Stone on March 03, 2004 if you want to see the other colors in her line.

I used the coat calculator and looks like a buckskin sire gives me the best percentages to bring about a buckskin fillie.

I'm in the process of sending of her hairs/DNA for HYPP. Not taking the breeders word for it that she is N/N.

I see on the testing form that I can also choose to get the results of genetic color/coat testing on Spirit.


http://www.horsetesting.com/EquineUS.pdf

If, again in theory, I wanted the best chance of a buckskin fille, is their a box or boxes I should check off in the coat section of the form I showed above?

Any assistance or comments on this are greatly appreciated! :think:
 
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#2 ·
i would think, either a horse with a single cream gene, such as Buckskin, Pally, or a smokey black, however there is also the whole perlino, cremello route as well, but with those you also have the chance for a double dilute.

breeding to the perlino or cremello means they will for SURE pass on 1 cream gene, and because your mare also has 1 creme gene, she could pass hers on and create a double dilute, or not pass one on and create a single dilute, which would be a buckskin, pally, or smokey black.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Hold on there Little Kitty:lol:

Is it possible that you could break down that very good, analytical, experienced breeder talk down in laymen's terms?

I'd have to do a whole lot of googlin' to make sense of that professor talk you just posted there!! :hide:

I get what you are saying for the most part so I think what you are saying is that there isn't 1 color coat to go with and that the having Spirit color tested doesn't help with increasing my odds for a buckskin?
 
#4 ·
Well, I may not know a large amount of breeding and genetics but my BO bred a black stud to a palomino mare and they turned out a buckskin. Not sure how much help that is.

Try this.

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp
 
#5 ·
Ok. A buckskin is genetically E_, A_, Crcr. E means they are a black based horse, A means agouti is restricting black to the points, and Crcr means they have one copy of the cream gene, so are a single dilute.

A palomino is ee _ _ Crcr. Two copies of "red" instead of black at the E locus, so red based, no way of knowing her agouti status without testing, as it doesn't express on a red based horse, and one copy of cream, making her a single dilute.

For the best chance of getting a buckskin foal, you would want to breed to a stallion that was EE AA. Breeding to a Crcr would give you 50% buckskin, 25% bay, 25% perlino. CrCR would give you 50% buckskin, 50% perlino, and crcr would give you 50% buckskin and 50% bay.
 
#8 ·
So what would the outcome be to a stallion of EE AA on the percentages like you showed for the Crcer, crCR and crcr.

I'll have her tested for the agouti status and lethal white/frame overo. Anything else to test her for since they will already have her DNA for the HYPP test? There is a gray way back 6 or 7 generations ago so I'm worried about that.

I like the odds for the crcr stallion. Either a buckskin or a bay. I'd be a happy camper!
 
#6 ·
I could even further muddy the water and add that I would also be happy with a Dun that had the buckskin look. Is that a red dun? Dunno.

Me and my BO are contemplating a future breeding of Spirit and I really like the buckskin/Dun look with the black tail, mane and legs and the countershading/dorsal stripe! So I'm curious is it all just a poo poo shoot or what is the best breeding and testing done to make it possible?:?

I'd be dissapointed with a perlino, grullo cremello sp? or god forbid a lethal white as I would keep the fillie.
 
#7 ·
You can completely eliminate the chance of a lethal white by testing her beforehand. It's cheap and once you know her frame status, you will be able to select a stud accordingly. You could also test for her agouti status to really narrow down the selection criteria for the studs.
 
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#17 ·
^^A stallion that's EE AA (crcr) would eliminate the possibility of an ee foal (red based- palomino and chestnut) :wink:
 
#18 ·
When I use the color calculator as Chiilaa said to an EE aa buckskin I would get 50% buckskin, 25% bay or 25% perlino.

I'm going to have Spirit Agouti tested and Silver dilute testing unless you guys tell me it won't make a hill a beans worth of a difference to get a buckskin.
 
#19 ·
The silver would mean the difference between a 'silver buckskin or bay' and just buckskin or bay, so it doesn't cost much, might as well find out.

Agouti is just a color concentrator. So, when the male contributes the black gene, E, it gets concentrated to the points - ears, mane, tail and socks on the legs. If she then contributes her Cr gene, then you would get a buckskin. If she contributed her red gene, e, then you'd get a bay.

To be sure fire, gonna get a buckskin or bay, you need a stallion that's EE AA, which is homozygous for black and homozygous for agouti, then you're 50/50, if your mare is not a silver carrier and is non-agouti. So, if that's in question I'd test for silver, and find out her agouti status. I'd also look for a nice EE AA stallion (he will be a very dark blackish bay) for your mare and that will guarantee you at least a 1 in 2 chance of buckskin. Or you could save all the testing money and the cost of breeding and just buy what you want:wink:.

I have a cremello stallion and a bay mare who is EE AA, I'm gonna get buckskin, not a doubt in the world. I tested the mare and bought the stallion so I could get exactly what I wanted.

So you could go that route too, find a mare & stallion you like and buy the foal in utero.
 
#21 ·
The silver would mean the difference between a 'silver buckskin or bay' and just buckskin or bay, so it doesn't cost much, might as well find out.

Agouti is just a color concentrator. So, when the male contributes the black gene, E, it gets concentrated to the points - ears, mane, tail and socks on the legs. If she then contributes her Cr gene, then you would get a buckskin. If she contributed her red gene, e, then you'd get a bay.
I'm a bit confused by this.. her mare will always give her 'red gene' (e).

To be sure fire, gonna get a buckskin or bay, you need a stallion that's EE AA, which is homozygous for black and homozygous for agouti, then you're 50/50, if your mare is not a silver carrier and is non-agouti. So, if that's in question I'd test for silver, and find out her agouti status. I'd also look for a nice EE AA stallion (he will be a very dark blackish bay) for your mare and that will guarantee you at least a 1 in 2 chance of buckskin. Or you could save all the testing money and the cost of breeding and just buy what you want:wink:.
If her mare tests homozygous agouti (AA), then she will only need to worry about finding a homozygous black (EE) stallion. Also, being homozygous for agouti and black does not affect a horse's phenotype. A 'dark blackish bay' sounds like you're talking about a brown horse, which is a whole 'nother story.

I have a cremello stallion and a bay mare who is EE AA, I'm gonna get buckskin, not a doubt in the world. I tested the mare and bought the stallion so I could get exactly what I wanted.

So you could go that route too, find a mare & stallion you like and buy the foal in utero.
Just needed to clear a few things up :wink:

SpiritLifter- Would you rather have chances of getting a bay or a perlino along with the chance of buckskin, or both?
Breeding to an EE AA bay would give you buckskin or bay, breeding to an EE AA buckskin would give your buckskin, bay, or perlino, and breeding to an EE AA perlino would give you chances of a buckskin or perlino.
 
#20 ·
If she's homozygous agouti (AA), then you wouldn't have to worry about the stallion's agouti status. So, yes, agouti is important, but I wouldn't waste your money on testing her for silver. It's highly unlikely that she carries silver.

Please be sure that your number one priority in finding a stallion is a quality, well-built horse that is proven in the discipline you aim to take the foal in. Color should always come last. It's not going to be easy finding a quality stallion with the color you're specifically looking for, so you're better off going out and buying a buckskin filly.
Even if you do end up with a buckskin (which, no matter the color of the stallion, can't be guaranteed), you still only have a 50% chance of getting a filly.
I could preach on for hours as to why quality should always come before color, but hopefully you already knew that :wink:
 
#27 · (Edited)
Even though you're not going the performance route, Dun It OK will give you a nice, athletic, all around foal that should do well with what you want as long as you don't hope to go to worlds for western pleasure or anything like that :wink:
Plus, you're guaranteed a color you want. Sounds like he's the ideal stallion for what you're looking for :) What do you think?
Would you pass because of the possibility of a grulla foal? I personally find grullas stunning.. one of my favorite colors for sure :D

ETA: We posted at the same time! He has gorgeous foals, doesn't he?! :D Not one I don't love so far :wink:
 
#31 ·
#30 ·
You mean pricey shipping fees? Because it might be impossible to find you a local stallion that does live cover that will also get you the color and quality you want!
His fee is very reasonable at $600.. couldn't find where it says if he does shipped semen, though I'm quite positive he does... No idea what shipping fees run at.. I've always done live cover to some nice, somewhat local stallions :)

Yes- Very gorgeous filly! :D

Anyway- I'm off to bed! Will check back on this thread sometime tomorrow :)
 
#32 · (Edited)
$600 dollars to a good stallion is almost free. Wonder what the chances of a shipped semen will catch on the first attempt? I know....another whole subject but let's give it a whirl! Besides a live cover I know NOTHING about what to do with a package at my door marked "live semen sample". And that's ANOTHER whole subject in and of itself!!
 
#39 ·
$600 dollars to a good stallion is almost free. Wonder what the chances of a shipped semen will catch on the first attempt? I know....another whole subject but let's give it a whirl! Besides a live cover I know NOTHING about what to do with a package at my door marked "live semen sample". And that's ANOTHER whole subject in and of itself!!
Spirit, AI is pretty reliable and easy, especially if you have a real potent stallion and they don't dilute too much and if you have a repro vet who knows his stuff. They don't ship to you, usually, but straight to your vet and you would only order on your vet's say so, that she's ready.

AI with transported semen can cost a fortune if the mare has problems and doesn't catch on the first or 2nd shipment. When I use TS I plan on 2 shipments and re-evaluate if it takes 3 with no success. The stud fee is frequently the LEAST part of the equation, shipping and handling can run around $300 to $750 PER SHIPMENT, depending on the stallion owners charges. Then it depends on your vet's fees too, do they charge per ultrasound or do they charge per cycle, do they charge individually for any hormones used or do they have a breeding package that includes all routine care, and on and on.

My bay mare that I've been talking about on this thread took me 3 seasons to get her mother bred. I breed leased her mother, didn't own her, the vet was less than stellar and just couldn't seem to get her to settle. After something like 6 shipments ($450 per shipment back in 2004) and thousands in vet fees, I finally told him to take the last shipment, put it in the mare and walk away and come back in 21 days. This mare just would not conceive if you tinkered with her hormones. I figured out my costs to put that filly on the ground at around $17,000. Freakin' ridiculous!

Now her daughter, my mare, is very much like her mother. I live cover her and she'll take in one try. AI........not so much, gotta work at it to get her when she's just ready to ovulate and do NOTHING with her hormones. Do you know how hard it is to get a vet to NOT use a bunch of hormone stuff to make sure the mare ovulates when they want her too?

Even if your mare is easy, the vet knows his stuff and you get lucky and catch on the first shipment, it's not a cheap endeavour and today's market is very soft if you want to sell the foal. So, just research it well and make an informed decision no matter what you decide to do.
 
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