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Lethal White Foals

This is a discussion on Lethal White Foals within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
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    12-10-2012, 02:22 AM
  #11
Green Broke
So you are saying any horse can carry it ? I have never heard of a quarter horse having lethal whites. I have not heard of this in Appys either.
Not in Morgans , etc. I do believe that this is a Paint / Pinto genetic disorder, even though many Paints were started from quarter horses with excessive white, the Paint has breed has changed since it orgin.
     
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    12-10-2012, 03:05 AM
  #12
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson    
so you are saying any horse can carry it ? I have never heard of a quarter horse having lethal whites. I have not heard of this in Appys either.
Not in Morgans , etc. I do believe that this is a Paint / Pinto genetic disorder, even though many Paints were started from quarter horses with excessive white, the Paint has breed has changed since it orgin.
It is definitely NOT a "Paint/pinto" disorder. It is in MANY breeds of horse.

It is in the following breeds based on positive tests of horses of these breeds:
American Paint Horse
American Quarter Horse
American Indian Horse
American Shetland Pony
Miniature Horse
Mustang
Nokota
Spanish Mustang
Spotted Kentucky Mountain Saddle Horse
Spotted Saddle horse
Tennessee Walking Horse
Thoroughbred


Based on phenotype (what the horse looks like) it is thought to be in these breeds further:
American Saddlebred
American Warmblood
Australian Draught Horse
Australian Stock Horse
Azteca
Campolina
Criollo
Curly
Falabella
Gelderland
Missouri Fox Trotter
Morgan
National Show Horse
Quarter pony


Both these lists have been taken from this article, a great read for anyone interested in lethal white at all, and a MUST READ for a breeder Lethal White Overo: What you should know | Color Genetics

Interestingly, a member on another forum has an Appaloosa who has tested positive. So I wouldn't discount that breed from the list either.
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    12-10-2012, 07:14 AM
  #13
Weanling
Just when you think you have it all figured out, people come and confuse you with facts.
     
    12-10-2012, 08:46 AM
  #14
Started
What is the reason that a lethal white foal dies?

I knew all of this, but I guess I've never looked into that question ;)
     
    12-10-2012, 08:51 AM
  #15
Trained
Their digestive tract is not completely formed (cannot poop) and they die usually within 24 hours.
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    12-10-2012, 08:57 AM
  #16
Trained
72 hours CLaporte. Sooner if put down. Otherwise they die in horrible pain from colic like symptoms due to an unformed or incomplete digestive track.
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    12-10-2012, 09:03 AM
  #17
Trained
^^^ thank you.
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    12-10-2012, 10:58 AM
  #18
Started
I know this might sound like a dumb question but I want to confirm my thoughts on this.

I have a bay belgian warmblood mare with a white sock and blaze, I am breeding her to a CSH Stallion who is a solid bay with no white. There is no chance of frame there is there?
     
    12-10-2012, 11:16 AM
  #19
Started
Ok breezy you did not understand what was told to you the first time we talked to you about lethal white. I told you as well as others that its very likely your blue eyed mare carries frame/splash or both( These are the blue eyed causing genes). And that down the road IF you ever breed her you need to:
1. Have her tested for frame
2. Make sure if she is positive for frame (very likely I think in your horses case) which would make her heterozygous or carries one copy of the frame gene. That means to be a responsible breeder you must breed to a non frame carrying stud because if the colt inherits two copies of the frame gene AKA homozygous for frame you get the 100% death with a lethal white foal.

Not sure how much genetics you've learned in school yet, but I'll try to teach you the best I can over the forum lol. When or if you learn genetics you'll probably start off with mendel pea plants and a basic punnet square. A Punnet Square can give us the mathmatical possiblities of possible genes inherited from parents and these get complicated later but were going to go with one in its most basic form. There is more that we could probably go into even in the basic form but lets ignore that cause that will start a whole tangent of dominance and incomplete dominace and so on and I don't want to make it confusing. I'll probably confuse you anyways so sorry in advance lol. Feel free guys to correct anything I mess up, miss, or don't explain well. And it appears I can't make you a punnet square on my phone best to my knowledge so maybe someone with a computer can or you may try google to see what one looks like but basically and I'm just going to use the allele abbreviations of N=non frame and F= frame which using the square you would get these results. NOTE: This is a simple punnet square explaining two breedings of KNOWN frame carriers not necessarily Overo/Overo because not all overo's have frame and frame is NOT only present in paints. Each parent carries the alleles of NF or heterozygous for frame and like I said I'm trying to bypass the whole dominance thing to make it simple.
Results
NN= Homozygous NO frame 25%
NF/NF= Heterozygous for frame 50%
FF= Homozygous FOR for frame 25%

So like I said you have a good chance of making a lethal white foal from your mare if she is frame and you breed to frame. And you might think oh I only have a 25% chance of death there's a 75% chance my foal will be normal. Not saying that you would just chance it but unfortunately there are breeders out there that do this, but I say taking any chance which would knowingly cause death is wrong and irresponsible. And not only costly to the owner but physically and emotionally costly to the mare as well.

Now here's a real life case for some of you who may not have seen it. This is my friends QH mare who doesn't necessarily scream frame. To most including her owner no one really thought much about her having frame she had two brown eyes and is solid colored exempt for a blaze which slightly goes over one of her eyes and a small white spot on her side. Well she bred her mare to a frame carrying stud. I mentioned to her that I wondered if her mare had frame due to her irregular blaze and side spot. But she said she didn't know and she like many others considered it a "paint" problem. Well I talked to her more about it but she didn't seem to worry so I just dropped it. Well her mare had her baby a few weeks back and she text me and told me that the baby was stuck for a bit and then it died right after birth as she was upset. And then she said it was a pretty colt and it was ALL WHITE. And I had her text me a pic and I said I was scared this would happen becuase low and behold a lethal white foal was born as I feared. And then I had to reexplain why the foal died which I did not enjoy. More education in the horse breeding world needs to be available. There is a lot of misconceptions about frame out there. Ok so I hope I helped and explained this well and didn't mess anything up. I'll step of my soapbox

This is my friends QH mare


This is a link to another sad true story about frame and great and sad read that I recommend.
Mountain Music: On the wings of an Angel
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    12-10-2012, 11:20 AM
  #20
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenson    
so you are saying any horse can carry it ? I have never heard of a quarter horse having lethal whites. I have not heard of this in Appys either.
Not in Morgans , etc. I do believe that this is a Paint / Pinto genetic disorder, even though many Paints were started from quarter horses with excessive white, the Paint has breed has changed since it orgin.
My mare is registered APHA, but is 94% Quarter Horse as nearly all of her breeding is crop outs. She is N/O and her only white markings are the blaze pictured below and one small sock.

     

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