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Looking for dilute genetics on seal brown horses

This is a discussion on Looking for dilute genetics on seal brown horses within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Double dilute seal brown
  • Horses tested as seal brown not bay

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    03-22-2011, 08:47 PM
  #11
Green Broke
Ok I just pottered around and found out about brown based cream dilutes.

They are called Smokey Brown. As you would expect, having obviously looked at smokey blacks, the black hair in the coat is very often not affected by the cream at all. However, the lighter 'soft' parts of the horse are. It is quite attractive

http://equine-color.info/content/smokey-brown-frosting

Here is a horse that everyone is quite sure is brown based with cream. He hasn't been tested as yet.
     
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    03-22-2011, 08:57 PM
  #12
Trained
I just found one too on the link that Citrus posted in the thread about Citrus's colour. Apparently Cream on brown works similar to cream on black and doesn't affect the colour much.

Here's a picture and the description. You can see the golden hairs ticked in her coat.


"The late ABI'S NANCY OAK (left), (Adanac Redd Oak X Adanac Abigail), 1989 brown mare with her 2004 brown buckskin daughter UCM LAURA SECORD (by Amberfield's Vanilla Ice, cremello). Most people would not look at Laura and think she was a buckskin. But since one cream gene has little effect on black, and brown horses are mostly black, this is the result. She is slightly lighter with a more golden undertone than her dam, and seeing them side by side makes this interesting comparison possible. Owned by Upper Canada Morgans."

Both of these guys are very pretty. I like this colour. Haha. The one you posted, Chiilaa, looks verrry similar to my friend's extremely sooty buckskin. Strange, but cool
LilacsGirl likes this.
     
    03-23-2011, 10:52 AM
  #13
Foal
Thank you all for the wonderful info. What I have found is the "dilute" gene works in many different ways. It depends on what "base" color your horse is then dilutes out that color. There are ssooo many different variables when looking at the different colors that I have compiled a list....by no means is this list complete and feel free to add to it.

Bay based horses:
Mahogony Bay
Dark Bay
Red Bay
Red based horse: (which are 2 distinct genes)
Chestnut (ruano/tostado) varies the shade.
Sorrel (ruano/tostado)
Black based
Jet black (does NOT fade) tends to be more homozygous also
Black (tendency to fade in sunlight)
Seal Brown (black with varying degrees of brown, isolated around muzzle, eyes, flanks and inside of the legs)

Now add all the other genetic mutations to these "base" colors
Roaning
Dilution genes (either 1 buckskin, palomino, or 2 cremello, perlino)
Grey
Dun
Champagne
Rabicano

Now add some more flair with paint genes
Overo
Tobiano
Sabino
Tovero
Splashed White (a pattern of overo)

Now when breeding according to Dr. Ed North in his book "Breeding for Color" we can have up to 51 different color combos....and that's only with one mutation....sssoooo what would happen if we bred a double dilute with a homozygous dun gene to a sorrel mare with a rabicano AND sabino genes??? The list would go on and on.....thats what makes guessing colors so much fun and interesting!

BTW thank you for the link to the morgan horse website, that was exactly what I was looking for...the genetic testing for seal brown and pics of the results!

Virginia
     
    03-23-2011, 11:02 AM
  #14
Trained
Hate to point out to you but there is only TWO base colors in horses.

Red and black. Everything else is a modification.

There are not two separate genes found at this time to cause the different shades of red in chestnut/sorrel horse. They are exactly the same genetically.

There are not two types of black (fading/nonfading). They are exactly the same genetically.

There are only three agouti (bay type) genes, bay (A), brown (At), and wild bay (A+).


Your pinto/paint genes are incorrect as well.

Pinto genes -
Frame
Splash
Sabino
Dominant white
Tobiano
     
    03-23-2011, 11:03 AM
  #15
Foal
Wonderful picture of "Abi's Nancy Oak" and her foal, that is exactly what I thought...although the 2 I have express the gene with a very distinct "chocolate" base coat with a "buckskin" coloring around the eyes, muzzle, flank and legs...I guess it just depends on the "base" coloring they would have been without the dilute gene....love it though!
     
    03-23-2011, 01:42 PM
  #16
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by NdAppy    
Hate to point out to you but there is only TWO base colors in horses.

Red and black. Everything else is a modification.

There are not two separate genes found at this time to cause the different shades of red in chestnut/sorrel horse. They are exactly the same genetically.

There are not two types of black (fading/nonfading). They are exactly the same genetically.

There are only three agouti (bay type) genes, bay (A), brown (At), and wild bay (A+).


Your pinto/paint genes are incorrect as well.

Pinto genes -
Frame
Splash
Sabino
Dominant white
Tobiano

Maybe I should have been more clear....the BAY gene is a red BASE with black points, the variations of that gene could be anywhere from a "mahogony to a light shade of red with BLACK POINTS, ears, lower legs, mane and tail, of course there are variations of that also...with the black being just below the knee/pastern up to the mid-gaskin. Of course there are Black Bays that appear black but are BAY BASED.

There are 2 distinct variations of chestnut/sorrel...the genes have not been discovered on the allele but the work of Dr. Ann Bowling at UC Davis, California has identified a distinct variation of the red based horses (chestnut/sorrel) geneticists/testing labs for this reason do not identify the 2 distinct variations.

There is still work being done on the reason why there is a "Jet Black and a Fading Black" and which individual genes produce the variations, as stated above just because they havent identified those genes doesnt mean they don't exist. As such a testing lab won't identify the difference, although they have found that a "Jet Black" will produce more homozygousity that a "Fading Black".

They have identified a "Seal Brown" as a genetic modification on a black based animal...somewhere they believe that a bay and black had some sort of genetic miscommunication during genetic recombination. "Seal Brown" is a heterozygous trait.

Pinto/Paint variations are:
Overo...a splashed white and frame are variations of this gene.
Tobiano is a seperate mutation and can breed true or homozygous
Tovero or "medicine hat" a horse that phenotypically will express both an overo and tobiano gene.
A "Dominant White" is an extreme variation of the sabino gene, which is thought to be a mutation of the overo gene. Since a horse can phenotypically express a sabino characteristic or an overo characteristic they are working to try and distinguish where the mutation occured. They are doing pedigree research in conjunction with the American Paint Horse Association on this. There is a beautiful TB Stallion that is a "White" which is double registered through the APHA, he is genetically an extreme sabino, his mother has produced 3 of them. There have only been 17 documented cases of "white" horses being registered through the Jockey Club.
There are also a lot of "splashed white overo" horses that are maximum whites also. A big difference between a "maximum sabino white" and a "maximum splashed white" is along the pedigree lines there are "deaf" horses being produced by the "splashed white" lines. In my opinion it has more to do with the success of those individual horses being bred than anything else.

Some very good sites to do research:
UC Davis, California
Cornell University
University of Kentucky
and
The Journal of Veterinary Medicine (usually your local library has a copy or ask your vet for his/hers)

The Animal Gentics labs are good resources but because they usually only give information on the tests they produce much more digging is required for accurate information.

If you have access to a University library, you can find current journal abstracts through there.

Brazil and Japan have been doing a lot of research but the info is difficult to get a hold of.
     
    03-23-2011, 01:48 PM
  #17
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4theloveofhorses
Maybe I should have been more clear....the BAY gene is a red BASE with black points, the variations of that gene could be anywhere from a "mahogony to a light shade of red with BLACK POINTS, ears, lower legs, mane and tail, of course there are variations of that also...with the black being just below the knee/pastern up to the mid-gaskin. Of course there are Black Bays that appear black but are BAY BASED.
I'm not sure what you mean by the "Black bay" thing..but Bays are BLACK BASED horses. Bay is Black + Agouti.

Agouti doesn't put black on a red horse, it tells the black on a black horse that it can only be on the horse's points.
     
    03-23-2011, 01:53 PM
  #18
Trained
*headdesk*
     
    03-23-2011, 02:12 PM
  #19
Lis
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4theloveofhorses    
although they have found that a "Jet Black" will produce more homozygousity that a "Fading Black".
Sorry I had to pick up on this. I think it's a wording problem. Say a Jet Black is EE and a Fading Black is Ee for the sake of arguement, yes a Jet Black will pass on a E all the time however it won't produce more homozygous foals unless the other horse is also EE. Homozygous means both alleles are present, being homozygous doesn't mean they will produce homozygous foals, it just means they will always pass on that gene, they can't pass anything else on. Again I think it's just a wording problem.
     
    03-23-2011, 05:41 PM
  #20
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
Ok I just pottered around and found out about brown based cream dilutes.

They are called Smokey Brown. As you would expect, having obviously looked at smokey blacks, the black hair in the coat is very often not affected by the cream at all. However, the lighter 'soft' parts of the horse are. It is quite attractive

http://equine-color.info/content/smokey-brown-frosting

Here is a horse that everyone is quite sure is brown based with cream. He hasn't been tested as yet.
AH! That's Whiskey a Spanish Mustang, I think he did test to have cream... not sure but I'm almost certain he is also brown
     

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