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Name of color/pattern?

This is a discussion on Name of color/pattern? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        04-15-2013, 09:31 PM
      #21
    Green Broke
    Are we sure the roany/grey doesn't actually have some Appy genes? Looks an awful lot like varnish to me?
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        04-15-2013, 09:38 PM
      #22
    Foal
    Positive 100%. And he's tested gray. As is his brother who looks identical to him.
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        04-15-2013, 09:58 PM
      #23
    Trained
    Add into that that varnish with grey tends to grey extremely fast from what I have noticed.
         
        04-16-2013, 01:29 AM
      #24
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by riddlemethis    
    No they won't. Heterzygous horses tend to be fleabitten and homozygous horses tend to NOT get fleabites. Not all horses gray out the same. Some get tons of flea bites and some get NO flea bites.

    Some don't even "look" gray at all.


    It totally depends.
    I thought this was true because my sister had a fleabitten Arab that never dappled.
         
        04-18-2013, 03:15 AM
      #25
    Foal
    Don't have much to contribute to the Grey conversation but I really like the look of this gal!
         
        04-18-2013, 08:23 AM
      #26
    Super Moderator
    We have always had one or more gray stallions over the last 50 years. We sold our last gray stud 2 years ago and he went to the UK.

    We actually think there are two slightly different gray genes:

    The one gets flea bitten as they gray out and never turns white; they just keep getting more speckles as they age. The flea bit spots will be reddish brown if they carry the red gene along with the gray gene, even if their base color was not red. Some of these horses turn white and then start getting more fleas bit spots as they get older. The last stallion that was like this was Classical Silver. He had no red gene so he only sired bays, browns and grays and sired 80% grays. ALL of his gray foals got flea bites unless they were out of gray mares that had turned plain white. Those had an 80% chance of getting the speckles.

    The other gene turns lighter and lighter and sometimes never dapples if the base color is is not dark. They all end up white if they live long enough. The stallion we just sold was like this. He carried a red gene and was foaled grullo or dun before he turned gray. Few of his foals dappled out and none of them got the speckles if they were not out of gray mares. It was always fun to see what the foals would do out of daughters of the other gray stud that had the flea bitten and dappled foals. He sired a lot of duns and most of his gray foals were born dun and grayed out by the time they were 5 or 6, never dappled or got flea bites (unless the dam was a dappled gray or the foals were born dark) and the ones born dun kept the dorsal stripe until they were 10 or 12 like their sire did. We still have several of these faded out duns from the stud sold 2 years ago. They never dapple much but the ones foaled bay, brown or black (dark base color) dapple out beautifully.

    Our gray Playgun son (sold about 10 years ago) carried a red gene and sired all colors. Playgun is white and our Playgun son also sired foals that turned plain white unless they were out of gray flea bitten mares. I still have one of his daughters (I think 12 or 13 years old) and she is almost white with no speckles coming at all. She was foaled bay so dappled out before turning snow white.

    I also raised and trained Arabians back in the 60s and 70s and they also had many that turned snow white and others that got flea bitten. I think the numbers of snow white ones greatly outnumbered the flea bitten ones, but there were both. All of the ones that traced to Skowronek and Nabor* were snow white. We had some other Arabians, mostly Polish, that got flea bitten. Again, the ones that dappled out the most were born dark and not born red.

    So, after so many years of breeding and owning several hundred gray horses, they all followed these these gray 'rules'. We have been waiting to see if they ever identify the two distinct gray 'patterns'. There has always been a parentage and thus genetic difference between the ones that turn snow white and the ones that get speckles.
         
        04-18-2013, 08:46 AM
      #27
    Trained
    It's thought that a homoygous grey (GG) will turn white without fleabites, and a heterozygous grey (Gg) will go fleabitten.
         
        04-18-2013, 08:46 AM
      #28
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    We have always had one or more gray stallions over the last 50 years. We sold our last gray stud 2 years ago and he went to the UK.

    We actually think there are two slightly different gray genes:

    The one gets flea bitten as they gray out and never turns white; they just keep getting more speckles as they age. The flea bit spots will be reddish brown if they carry the red gene along with the gray gene, even if their base color was not red. Some of these horses turn white and then start getting more fleas bit spots as they get older. The last stallion that was like this was Classical Silver. He had no red gene so he only sired bays, browns and grays and sired 80% grays. ALL of his gray foals got flea bites unless they were out of gray mares that had turned plain white. Those had an 80% chance of getting the speckles.

    The other gene turns lighter and lighter and sometimes never dapples if the base color is is not dark. They all end up white if they live long enough. The stallion we just sold was like this. He carried a red gene and was foaled grullo or dun before he turned gray. Few of his foals dappled out and none of them got the speckles if they were not out of gray mares. It was always fun to see what the foals would do out of daughters of the other gray stud that had the flea bitten and dappled foals. He sired a lot of duns and most of his gray foals were born dun and grayed out by the time they were 5 or 6, never dappled or got flea bites (unless the dam was a dappled gray or the foals were born dark) and the ones born dun kept the dorsal stripe until they were 10 or 12 like their sire did. We still have several of these faded out duns from the stud sold 2 years ago. They never dapple much but the ones foaled bay, brown or black (dark base color) dapple out beautifully.

    Our gray Playgun son (sold about 10 years ago) carried a red gene and sired all colors. Playgun is white and our Playgun son also sired foals that turned plain white unless they were out of gray flea bitten mares. I still have one of his daughters (I think 12 or 13 years old) and she is almost white with no speckles coming at all. She was foaled bay so dappled out before turning snow white.

    I also raised and trained Arabians back in the 60s and 70s and they also had many that turned snow white and others that got flea bitten. I think the numbers of snow white ones greatly outnumbered the flea bitten ones, but there were both. All of the ones that traced to Skowronek and Nabor* were snow white. We had some other Arabians, mostly Polish, that got flea bitten. Again, the ones that dappled out the most were born dark and not born red.

    So, after so many years of breeding and owning several hundred gray horses, they all followed these these gray 'rules'. We have been waiting to see if they ever identify the two distinct gray 'patterns'. There has always been a parentage and thus genetic difference between the ones that turn snow white and the ones that get speckles.
    This is a good observation, but it is a misinterpretation of causality. There is only one grey gene, and I doubt very much that another will ever be found, there is no reason to believe it will.

    What you are seeing is something genetic, yes. But it is not two different grey genes, it is something else - the "fleabitten" code. Just like all bay horses are black based, so all fleabitten greys are grey based, and it's the same gene as non-fleabitten. Just something ELSE aside from that causing the fleabitten pattern.
         
        04-18-2013, 09:56 AM
      #29
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    It's thought that a homoygous grey (GG) will turn white without fleabites, and a heterozygous grey (Gg) will go fleabitten.
    This has to be a wrong assumption as I have had many snow white mares out of bay, brown, black and sorrel mares. I have a white Playgun granddaughter out of a bay mare right now. Playgun, himself, is snow white and is sired by the Sorrel Freckles Playboy but is out of a snow white mare. She produced another gray son by a sorrel stud that is also snow white. They cannot be homozygous for gray with only one gray parent.

    I do not think there are two 'completely different' gray genes, but I would bet on one have a slight mutation from the other. I have never seen the two different patterns ever cross the genetic lines. They have always had a direct line to one dominant gray pattern or the other or it is a 'crap shoot' if they can have both from two different pattered parents. I have never seen either pattern skip a generation so it is dominant trait.

    The same is true of the Arabian, Nabor*. I had two different Nabor* daughters I trained out of bay and chestnut mares and both were snow white like him.
         
        04-18-2013, 10:56 AM
      #30
    Green Broke
    I vote grey, definitely. :) Those "black spots" may be where she just cut herself and the hair grew back in as her base color, which looks like black. Or it could be "flea bites" but those large black spots seem like old cuts to me.
         

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