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  • Need horse color genetic
  • Can chestnut produce smokey black bred to black

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    06-30-2013, 08:27 PM
  #1
Yearling
Need Information!

I have a few questions.

1. Can a black horse and Red Dun have a smokey black foal?
2. Can a black horse and chestnut have a smokey black foal?
3. Can a Smokey black and Red Dun OR Chestnut have a smokey black foal?
4. If a horse is non agouti (aa) can it be a smokey black?
5. If a horse is non agouti (aa) should you test for a red/black factor to see if it is actually black or something else?

I will come up with more questions eventually, but these are all I have for now.

Please, colour experts please answer if you can! I am just wondering to get more information.

I am wanting to test Breeze for frame overo, and thought about testing her for more, so I don't have to in the future if I am interested, and I am wondering if I should her her tested for the cream gene ( I am not sure what colour her sire is, I was told he was black, but he could be smokey black, and her dam is either red dun or chestnut) and the red/dun factor, or anything else.

I am not sure if I will get her tested just yet, but eventually I will. She is already tested for agouti, and she came back aa.
     
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    06-30-2013, 08:37 PM
  #2
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breezy2011    
I have a few questions.

1. Can a black horse and Red Dun have a smokey black foal?
2. Can a black horse and chestnut have a smokey black foal?
3. Can a Smokey black and Red Dun OR Chestnut have a smokey black foal?
4. If a horse is non agouti (aa) can it be a smokey black?
5. If a horse is non agouti (aa) should you test for a red/black factor to see if it is actually black or something else?

I will come up with more questions eventually, but these are all I have for now.

Please, colour experts please answer if you can! I am just wondering to get more information.

I am wanting to test Breeze for frame overo, and thought about testing her for more, so I don't have to in the future if I am interested, and I am wondering if I should her her tested for the cream gene ( I am not sure what colour her sire is, I was told he was black, but he could be smokey black, and her dam is either red dun or chestnut) and the red/dun factor, or anything else.

I am not sure if I will get her tested just yet, but eventually I will. She is already tested for agouti, and she came back aa.
1 and 2, no. A smokey black horse is a black horse with one cream. A black, red dun, or chestnut horse do not carry cream.

3. Yes, a smokey black bred to a chestnut or red dun has a chance at a smokey black.

4. Yes.

5. Brainfart...I need to think LOL I still half fail at agouti and extension stuff.

I don't think Breeze has dun, she's too dark, so probably wouldn't waste your money on that.
     
    06-30-2013, 10:53 PM
  #3
Trained
1. No.

2. No.

3. Yes, depending on the agouti status of the chestnut/red dun.

4. Yes.

5. Yes, dun, champagne, and others, are not connected with the agouti status so a black based horse can have one (or more) of these as well as being aa, but they would seriously change the coat color on an E_ aa horse, excepting cream as it doesn't always dilute the coat color to the naked eye.

The only thing that I would test your mare for outside of the agouti test you have done is frame and splash, and possibly cream. I'm highly doubting your mare is cream though.
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    07-01-2013, 12:27 AM
  #4
Yearling
Thanks, I don't think she is cream either, but with all the brown going threw her coat, I was wondering... a few days ago I gave her a bath, and her brown was even more visible then usual (although her legs and face got even blacker). So just so we are clear... even if she does come up non agouti, means she isn't nessasarily a true black, she can be a different colour, but isn't brown or bay?

Also, I am sorta having this debate between someone (not on here) about genetics. She was telling me how a horse can produce ANY colour, no matter what. She told me this story about how two famous jumping horses that were both 'true blacks' bred and came out with a cremello foal. She said that back in their lines there was cremellos.

I told her that colours don't skip generations. I said there are only 2 possibilities for this. 1. Both horses were smokey blacks. 2. It was a lethal white foal and died within a few days. I also got in to talking about how you cannot get a double diluted foal from breeding to two non diluted horses, and you had to have at least a double dilution to get one (whether it is 2 single diluted, or 1 double diluted) and got into more details about that.

Am I right, or is she? It is not a whos right and wrong thing, but I am just wondering so I don't get things mixed up.
     
    07-01-2013, 12:54 AM
  #5
Green Broke
1-3: If the black horse is really a smoky black horse, then yes, it could produce a smoky black foal on a chestnut or red dun horse.

4: Yes, a horse can be aa and have a single cream gene, which would be a smoky black

5: Red/black factor is usually obvious. If the horse is aa, it would either be black or chestnut based, but other genes could be at play, in which case you'd have to test for those specifically (in this case it sounds like you're interested in cream)

You're right in that if 2 black horses produced a cremello foal, they must both be smoky black. You do need 2 copies of the cream gene to get a double dilute, one from each parent.
     
    07-01-2013, 01:20 PM
  #6
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breezy2011    
Thanks, I don't think she is cream either, but with all the brown going threw her coat, I was wondering... a few days ago I gave her a bath, and her brown was even more visible then usual (although her legs and face got even blacker). So just so we are clear... even if she does come up non agouti, means she isn't nessasarily a true black, she can be a different colour, but isn't brown or bay?

Also, I am sorta having this debate between someone (not on here) about genetics. She was telling me how a horse can produce ANY colour, no matter what. She told me this story about how two famous jumping horses that were both 'true blacks' bred and came out with a cremello foal. She said that back in their lines there was cremellos.

I told her that colours don't skip generations. I said there are only 2 possibilities for this. 1. Both horses were smokey blacks. 2. It was a lethal white foal and died within a few days. I also got in to talking about how you cannot get a double diluted foal from breeding to two non diluted horses, and you had to have at least a double dilution to get one (whether it is 2 single diluted, or 1 double diluted) and got into more details about that.

Am I right, or is she? It is not a whos right and wrong thing, but I am just wondering so I don't get things mixed up.
Ok I don't know how many times I gotta say this. Your mare is BLACK BLACK BLACK BLACK BLACK. Which means she is (aa) no agouti = black due to the coloring of her coat since she definitely isn't sorrel which is the only color possibility she could be without agouti and she 100% isn't sorrel. There's no point it testing for agouti the lighter coloring is sun/sweat fading. No point in testing for dun either as dun is a simple dominant and would show on her coat. Dun dilutes black unlike cream. The only thing you need to really spend your money on is frame/splash testing maybe red factor but if her parent was a red dun she'd be Ee.
As for your other debate IF two black horses produced a double diluted foal then each parent would have one cream gene to pas to its offspring.
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    07-01-2013, 04:02 PM
  #7
Yearling
Thanks, that is what I was trying to tell her, but she still doesn't agree with me on that, so I told her to believe what she wants. She tells me two horses can produce any colour, like two bays can produce a cremello, or two palominos can produce a bay roan. All I told her was colour genes don't skip generations... but if she wants to believe that, then that's fine.
     
    07-01-2013, 07:36 PM
  #8
Trained
Send her the color calculator so she can figure it out herself.

But your mare is black.
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    07-03-2013, 03:14 PM
  #9
Yearling
Your horse looks black. Blacks fade. With aa she isn't brown (which is a variant of bay). If one of her parents has a cream gene (palomino, cremello, etc.) Then it would be possible for her to be smokey black. If they are not then there is no reason to test unless pics of sire or dam show they perhaps are mismarked for color on their papers. Test for what the others recommended if you are intending to breed to prevent the possibility of heartache that goes with losing a foal.
     
    07-03-2013, 04:07 PM
  #10
Trained
Breezy, there is no way my gelding carries a cream gene and he is slightly faded this summer. Moreso than he's ever been. He's a black and white pinto. His dam is a pitch black Percheron and his sire is a black APHA. He has some browns and chestnuts back on his family tree in his sire's side, but no horses with cream at all.

Stop listening to other people and having pointless arguments with them. Sometimes you just can't fix stupid, so you smile, nod, and go about your business.
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