red dun? - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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red dun?

I was wondering-- if Dun and a chestnut/sorrel makes a red dun, would a liver chestnut make a darker variation of red dun, or would you not be able to tell the difference?
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post #2 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 05:40 PM
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No way to predict if it would be a liver red dun or not. No way to predict what shade of red a breeding will produce.
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post #3 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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What would it look like, if it happened? Have you ever seen one?
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post #4 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 05:53 PM
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More pics of him here - McBride Quarter Horses
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post #5 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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they would produce a 'chocolate red dun' every time? or could they have a light color red dun?
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post #6 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 06:50 PM
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There is no guarantee on color shades with any breeding.
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post #7 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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I thought since the liver had darker shades on its legs mane and tail-- it would react differently to the agouti than a light colored chestnut. Thanks for clearning that up.
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post #8 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toto View Post
it would react differently to the agouti than a light colored chestnut.
Agouti doesn't express on a red-based coat. He's advertised as A/A because they will have tested him to see if it's physically possible for him to throw black or grulla. It isn't - to a homozygous black [E/E] mare with no modifiers [ie, plain black] he can only throw bay and bay [yellow, 'zebra', classic] dun. Depending on his dun zygosity.

Agouti on a black base gives you bay [or brown or wild bay depending on which type of Agouti you're actually talking about]. In that effect it's sort of the world's most common dilution gene! It restricts black to certain parts of the horse's body, therefore diluting the rest of the coat to a brown or reddish colour.

We aren't sure what determines the shade of red a red horse comes out as, certainly sooty can have a genetic factor and is implicated in turning a 'normal' chestnut liver, but the inheritance of the gene is thus far unknown, and having a gene and expressing it can be two completely different things.

My filly for example almost certainly has sooty. Her tail is almost black [photo does NOT do it justice] and her mane has black strands in it, but that's the limits to HER expression. She also probably has flaxen, given that she has a lot of gold and white in her mane as well as normal 'red' strands, shades of dark brown, and the black strands.


She's not dun, but she has a weak countershading dorsal stripe, which doesn't show up much in person but seems quite strong in photos taken from behind. Unfortunately I can't find the photo I have uploaded that shows it.

She's a Thoroughbred, and the dun gene does not [to my knowledge] exist in the breed. It's certainly not in her bloodlines on either side.

A chestnut horse without flaxen or sooty will have a mane and tail that match its body, or at least that's my understanding of the genetics.

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post #9 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 07:42 PM
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And the below horse indicates how extreme sooty can be. He is chestnut.


Same gene [or so we believe], completely different result.
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post #10 of 26 Old 03-23-2013, 07:46 PM
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Here are two red duns I know, one is rather dark and the other is a rather orangey color (light enough to the point of being mistaken for my buckskin from a distance).
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