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? Regarding buckskin/ Appy genes

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        02-25-2014, 12:54 PM
      #11
    Green Broke
    YES! Lol it is due to the second part, not the first. As far as I know there are no pattern genes (pinto-tobiano, frame, etc, or Appy or grey, roan) that will not work on all colors. There are some tendencies within those but I think it's apples and oranges when it comes to color/pattern. (Correct me if I'm wrong! I can't think of anything otherwise)

    They definitely exist and are out there though they are not, in general, ideal for breeding stock. Buckskins are relatively dark (in general again) so while the pattern may not be as flashy it isn't as hidden as some of those horses up there. I think it's beautiful on a buckskin, but most people prefer dark obvious colors. It's just a matter of preference, while the pattern may not be as noticeable on a cremello you can still market "I have a cremello Appaloosa, no one else does, buy it!" though it maybe isn't as good a line, it really just comes down to personal preference, aside from marketability.

    You mare had a 50% chance of getting the Appy gene and didn't, she could possibly still carry spots though as I said, but she won't ever show it.

    Wild bays are basically the same as bays but the black is more restricted-


    I see the confusion. Yes, all buckskins have black points, some (a good amount but not all) also have frosting (along the mane and tail), buckskins in particular are known for this, it's also more obvious on them than other colors I think (dark mane pale basecoat).

    I think this is a good example, some have a little some have a lot.

    From the Buckskin Horse Association ( :) )-

    A true coloured Buckskin should be the colour of golden, tanned deer hide with black points. Shades of Buckskin may vary from pale cream to light gold to dark gold to chocolate. Points (mane ,tail, legs) can be dark brown or black. Guard hairs grow off the body coat up over the base of the main and tail. The hairs are Buckskin coloured with frosting which is a collection of lighter hairs streaked through the mane and/or tail. A dorsal stripe may be present in the Buckskin but is not very wide or prominent.

    (I will make note that the dorsal stripe mentioned is countershading and not a true dorsal as seen in a dun) The points don't change, the mane and tail just have the "frosted" guard hairs.

    As with anything I think what you are seeing is just variation in the individual horses. I would think if the coloring was lightening them anyways at that point the horse would no longer be recognizable as a buckskin.

    Your mare is gorgeous!! Remember, the color is separate from the breed. Some purebred Appaloosa's don't show color. Just like "breeding stock" Paints. She does not appear to have the leopard gene (I am using leopard interchangeably with Appaloosa so as not to confuse you, the name is the leopard gene, but confusing since that is also the name of one of the colors so Appaloosa gene makes more sense) in which case she will not roan. She may of gotten it but I don't think so (look up what the traits are other than color). So she is to all effects a solid horse. She MAY carry the patterns for spots so if you bred her to a horse with that gene the foal may have spots, but she also may not. So your mare is a solid, and beautiful, buckskin.
    The horse needs to have that gene to roan (unless they have the regular roan gene of course).

    I'll try to find it!

    Good I'm glad :) Yes, it was clear. No, but I don't usually. I just check my CP.
         
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        02-25-2014, 12:58 PM
      #12
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zexious    
    Another fantastic, informative thread.

    Yogiwick--You're so smart. And always post such beautiful pictures <3
    Aww thanks! I've got a lot to learn and am self taught, so definitely don't consider me one of the experts! I try not to post unless I feel I have a good idea of what I'm talking about though :P

    Thank google for the pics :) Just search til I find what I'm looking for!
         
        02-25-2014, 01:20 PM
      #13
    Green Broke
    Found it!! Appaloosa stuff at the bottom.

    Horse Color Genetics: An Introduction

    (I love this thing)
         
        02-25-2014, 01:26 PM
      #14
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Yogiwick    
    YES! Lol it is due to the second part, not the first. As far as I know there are no pattern genes (pinto-tobiano, frame, etc, or Appy or grey, roan) that will not work on all colors. There are some tendencies within those but I think it's apples and oranges when it comes to color/pattern. (Correct me if I'm wrong! I can't think of anything otherwise)

    They definitely exist and are out there though they are not, in general, ideal for breeding stock. Buckskins are relatively dark (in general again) so while the pattern may not be as flashy it isn't as hidden as some of those horses up there. I think it's beautiful on a buckskin, but most people prefer dark obvious colors. It's just a matter of preference, while the pattern may not be as noticeable on a cremello you can still market "I have a cremello Appaloosa, no one else does, buy it!" though it maybe isn't as good a line, it really just comes down to personal preference, aside from marketability.

    You mare had a 50% chance of getting the Appy gene and didn't, she could possibly still carry spots though as I said, but she won't ever show it.

    Wild bays are basically the same as bays but the black is more restricted-


    I see the confusion. Yes, all buckskins have black points, some (a good amount but not all) also have frosting (along the mane and tail), buckskins in particular are known for this, it's also more obvious on them than other colors I think (dark mane pale basecoat).

    I think this is a good example, some have a little some have a lot.

    From the Buckskin Horse Association ( :) )-

    A true coloured Buckskin should be the colour of golden, tanned deer hide with black points. Shades of Buckskin may vary from pale cream to light gold to dark gold to chocolate. Points (mane ,tail, legs) can be dark brown or black. Guard hairs grow off the body coat up over the base of the main and tail. The hairs are Buckskin coloured with frosting which is a collection of lighter hairs streaked through the mane and/or tail. A dorsal stripe may be present in the Buckskin but is not very wide or prominent.

    (I will make note that the dorsal stripe mentioned is countershading and not a true dorsal as seen in a dun) The points don't change, the mane and tail just have the "frosted" guard hairs.

    As with anything I think what you are seeing is just variation in the individual horses. I would think if the coloring was lightening them anyways at that point the horse would no longer be recognizable as a buckskin.

    Your mare is gorgeous!! Remember, the color is separate from the breed. Some purebred Appaloosa's don't show color. Just like "breeding stock" Paints. She does not appear to have the leopard gene (I am using leopard interchangeably with Appaloosa so as not to confuse you, the name is the leopard gene, but confusing since that is also the name of one of the colors so Appaloosa gene makes more sense) in which case she will not roan. She may of gotten it but I don't think so (look up what the traits are other than color). So she is to all effects a solid horse. She MAY carry the patterns for spots so if you bred her to a horse with that gene the foal may have spots, but she also may not. So your mare is a solid, and beautiful, buckskin.
    The horse needs to have that gene to roan (unless they have the regular roan gene of course).

    I'll try to find it!

    Good I'm glad :) Yes, it was clear. No, but I don't usually. I just check my CP.
    Now that we are discussing it, yeah I guess it is that I never thought about that light colored loud Appys make no sense from the color perspective! Just like breeding stocks... Sorta like how everyone playfully picks on my mare for being 'such a beautiful Appy- oh wait, she isn't patterned!' lol
    I do agree the leopard (no worries, by the way, I did know that the complex is called that, alsp 'Lp,' too right? :) ) can be beautiful on buckskin- that one you or the other poster found with the spotted butt and pale head was a beaut!

    So the wild bay- that doesn't exist as a 'wild buckskin'? Lol I have had several people tell my my mare has super dark points, and that they were surprised, as they hadn't seen many so dark (I haven't a clue personally, lol).
    I also knew about the fake dorsal. They also get fake leg barring, as my mare does when she is between coats. Again, had people all excited for her possible dun-ness... she doesn't have it, I am 99% sure. She is my seasonal dunskin, then, lol.
    And thank you on the compliments. She is my baby. Not that I made her that color or anything... but she has a great mind and personality to boot. :)
    So the roaning- a total assumed lack of the gene in my mare means no roaning. That is definitely something I didn't know/understand before. So essentially one can assume appaloosa showing pattern= will roan at some point to some degree, and the reverse and lack of pattern means no roaning ever. And on non-Appys, it is specifically a roan gene that causes it. Got it. :)
    The traits to go with the roaning you mention: things like striped feet? She has that. But then our BLM caught paintish-drafty mustang has them too! Along with the eye white as well... the mustang has that too (but not my mare as much). My horses are backwards! Lol
    Thanks again!
         
        02-25-2014, 01:39 PM
      #15
    Foal
    Sub..
    I love love love that tool. Now if we could combine that with the "what color will the foal be?" tool... :)
    Posted via Mobile Device
    GracielaGata and Yogiwick like this.
         
        02-25-2014, 01:57 PM
      #16
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GracielaGata    
    Now that we are discussing it, yeah I guess it is that I never thought about that light colored loud Appys make no sense from the color perspective! Just like breeding stocks... Sorta like how everyone playfully picks on my mare for being 'such a beautiful Appy- oh wait, she isn't patterned!' lol
    Well you can breed the pattern into the breeding stock and have a spotted bay, even if you have a spotted cremello it doesn't mean much though lol.

    I do agree the leopard (no worries, by the way, I did know that the complex is called that, alsp 'Lp,' too right? :) ) can be beautiful on buckskin- that one you or the other poster found with the spotted butt and pale head was a beaut!
    Yes, Lp. (I wasn't so worried about you it's just confusing overall haha) It's more subtle but I like that, obviously there is too subtle though.

    So the wild bay- that doesn't exist as a 'wild buckskin'?
    Uh honestly I don't know, I don't see why not but I haven't heard of it. I assume there is.

    lol I have had several people tell my my mare has super dark points, and that they were surprised, as they hadn't seen many so dark (I haven't a clue personally, lol). Shrug, hers look dark but it doesn't mean anything, it's just her color. Probably due to the color of her coat and her long mane and tail. Some are more washed out some aren't.

    I also knew about the fake dorsal. They also get fake leg barring, as my mare does when she is between coats. Again, had people all excited for her possible dun-ness... she doesn't have it, I am 99% sure. She is my seasonal dunskin, then, lol.
    As any color can :). When I was young I had a buckskin mare and wasn't sure myself if she was buckskin/dun (had a lot of people say dun) but looking back she was very much buckskin, very light dorsal and a more flat brown coat (as opposed to lighter gold, she was shiny and pretty but dark) were the only reasons to even think dun.

    And thank you on the compliments. She is my baby. Not that I made her that color or anything... but she has a great mind and personality to boot. :)
    Good :)

    So the roaning- a total assumed lack of the gene in my mare means no roaning. That is definitely something I didn't know/understand before. So essentially one can assume appaloosa showing pattern= will roan at some point to some degree, and the reverse and lack of pattern means no roaning ever.
    YES!! Appaloosa with the leopard gene is more accurate than Appaloosa showing pattern though.

    And on non-Appys, it is specifically a roan gene that causes it. Got it. :)
    Yes, horses in general can have a roan gene; the leopard gene can cause (and will to some effect) a roaning called varnish roan. So Appy's have varnish roan, which is not the same as regular roan (though I assume they can possibly have that too, but again with not hiding the simple bold colors!). A horse that does not have the leopard gene cannot ever be a varnish roan, even if they have regular roan the two roans are two separate things and one if FROM the leopard gene.

    The traits to go with the roaning you mention: things like striped feet? She has that. But then our BLM caught paintish-drafty mustang has them too! Along with the eye white as well... the mustang has that too (but not my mare as much). My horses are backwards! Lol
    Thanks again!
    Some horses have striped feet, if that is her only trait then it's unlikely she has the gene, if she has several traits (feet, eyes, mottled skin for ex) it is more likely she does.
    Here is maybe a better example of a varnish roan- see how the color is retained in bony areas? (and of course the horse has Appaloosa characteristics and looks like an Appaloosa? Ignore the spots, they aren't relevant here)


    Classic roan


    See how the body is roaned relatively evenly? Even a horse that is solid except for a dusting of roan in a spot or two doesn't look the same as a varnish. The varnish roan will fade out in a very distinct pattern. It is almost (not to confuse you) like grey with roan since it will progressively get lighter all over and the non roaned areas more pronounced.

    Regular roan will change seasonally and while the horse may be lighter as it gets older it won't be so dramatic as varnish. Even the classic roan, if the horses have an injury (which this pampered show pony obviously doesn't haha) it will grow back the color of the original coat, and may look like spots, but look at the head and legs.. the body is light, the head and legs are dark, now look at the varnish... that's the difference! (The chestnut's legs are pretty dark but they aren't all like that)
         
        02-25-2014, 02:08 PM
      #17
    Yearling
    You're right 'appy with leopard gene' is the more correct phrase. Not sure why I said it like I did. Lol
    I do agree she probably doesn't have the gene, as she has no other traits that I know of.

    I knew a varnish roan appy just like that one you posted! An excellent example of Appy roan. I do love how it stays dark on the bony spots. So neat.
    And the other- I hadn't really thought about that being a difference. I have a friend with a QH roan, with the scars being the base non-roaned color. Makes for neat looks on the non pampered pasture kept horse, lol.
    So then a varnish roan appy won't do that- the scars will come back the correct varnish color, though maybe after the initial regrowth grows out?
    And good analogy on the 'grey roan.' I get exactly what you mean.
         
        02-25-2014, 02:27 PM
      #18
    Green Broke
    That is just the regular roan, any non Appaloosa that has roan is that. It just works a little differently. It's very interesting as it can be "classic roan" like that picture or just a couple roan hairs over the rump type thing. The varnish roan is distinct and is an Appy thing.

    Oh I love the mustangs!!




    Soo cool :) Though you have to imagine all the nasty fights they've had!!

    A poster on here has a gorgeous varnish roan Appy, I actually think her horse is in the voting for the February contest!

    As far as scarring on a varnish roan I really don't know, I would guess it would come back the original color (grey's do too to an extent) but don't know. I learned to ride on an Appy breeding farm but it was so long ago I don't remember the details lol.

    Yay, I will have to use that 'grey roan' again since it makes sense haha. Some people take things too literally, I like that I explain stuff in my own weird way and you get it
         
        02-26-2014, 10:59 AM
      #19
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Yogiwick    
    That is just the regular roan, any non Appaloosa that has roan is that. It just works a little differently. It's very interesting as it can be "classic roan" like that picture or just a couple roan hairs over the rump type thing. The varnish roan is distinct and is an Appy thing.

    Oh I love the mustangs!!




    Soo cool :) Though you have to imagine all the nasty fights they've had!!

    A poster on here has a gorgeous varnish roan Appy, I actually think her horse is in the voting for the February contest!

    As far as scarring on a varnish roan I really don't know, I would guess it would come back the original color (grey's do too to an extent) but don't know. I learned to ride on an Appy breeding farm but it was so long ago I don't remember the details lol.

    Yay, I will have to use that 'grey roan' again since it makes sense haha. Some people take things too literally, I like that I explain stuff in my own weird way and you get it
    Yogi- I would venture to say that it must be because we are like minded. Lol Frequently I get very odd looks for my versions of explanations... it makes complete and perfect sense in my head! Much easier to understand than 'their way.' lol
    Those 2 pics are mustangs?! Wow they are beauties! Like you say, it is from fighting, but man those markings are awesome!
    And I agree on mustangs... ours is such an awesome horse... not nearly as pretty as those 2 though. But such an excellent heard and mind.
         
        02-26-2014, 11:06 AM
      #20
    Trained
    I am not sure that varnish has "corn marks" where old scars are. ND could probably confirm this, she has a lovely varnish mare.
    Yogiwick likes this.
         

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