Is she a fewspot Appaloosa? - Page 3
 
 

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Is she a fewspot Appaloosa?

This is a discussion on Is she a fewspot Appaloosa? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Few spot appaloosa characteristics

 
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    06-30-2011, 06:46 PM
  #21
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman    
No, that is not correct.

Think LP = spots/characteristics, and PATN = white.

An LP LP horse would be homozygous for spots/characteristics, but in the absence of PATN would be solid...


Pretty sure it's the other way around... the reason people breed non characteristic Appy's because they might still have the PATN gene. Of course you'd have to breed them to an Appy that carries the LP gene. My fewspot is LP/LP therefore I'm guarenteed some Appy characteristics in her foals even though I plan to breed her to a Friesian sporthorse without an LP gene.

Ever do invisible notes with lemon juice? Write the note in juice and then after it dries you can't see it. You then place it in front of a lightbulb to heat up and show your note. Well the PATN gene would be the lemon juice. The horse may have the PATN gene but without the LP (lightbulb) it won't show up. Might not be the best analogy but the only one I could come up with right this minute.

NdAppy.. do you agree or am I the one who has it backward?
     
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    06-30-2011, 08:47 PM
  #22
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossover    
Pretty sure it's the other way around... the reason people breed non characteristic Appy's because they might still have the PATN gene. Of course you'd have to breed them to an Appy that carries the LP gene. My fewspot is LP/LP therefore I'm guarenteed some Appy characteristics in her foals even though I plan to breed her to a Friesian sporthorse without an LP gene.

Ever do invisible notes with lemon juice? Write the note in juice and then after it dries you can't see it. You then place it in front of a lightbulb to heat up and show your note. Well the PATN gene would be the lemon juice. The horse may have the PATN gene but without the LP (lightbulb) it won't show up. Might not be the best analogy but the only one I could come up with right this minute.

NdAppy.. do you agree or am I the one who has it backward?
NdAppy only knows what I tell her.
(not really...)

Perhaps this will help - LP is an acronym for Leopard Complex, meaning spots and characteristics. PATN is an acronym for pattern, pattern in the case of Appys being some form of white pattern.

Without PATN you cannot have a white pattern. If the horse is LP there may be spots, but the spots would only be visible if the base color was overriden by white...in other words a spot the same color as the base coat is not a spot visually, so the horse would appear solid...
     
    06-30-2011, 08:51 PM
  #23
Trained
All I know is LP has to do with the varnish roaning.

I'll humbly defer to Face on the Appy LP/PATN Info. I know I am not up to snuff on that and am more than happy to leave that to him.

All I know is that Appy color has an appytude of his own
     
    06-30-2011, 09:35 PM
  #24
Banned
Perhaps if it were worded differently - remember, I was replying to you post that stated snowcaps do not have PATN which, of course, is not true.

An Appy with no LP will have neither spots, characteristics, or color (although as you indicated if it has PATN it can pass that on).
An Appy with no PATN will have no color.
An Appy with LP and no PATN will usually have ( or develop) characteristics.
Both LP and PATN must be present for color and characteristics - the pattern being determined by the type of PATN and whether the horse is heterozygous or homozygous for LP. If it is homo for LP, in the presence of PATN, it will be a snowcap or fewspot, depending on the type of PATN, although there is some question as to whether a fewspot may just be the full expression of a snowcap. If the horse is heterozygous for LP, the pattern will be varnish roan, blanket, snowflake, or a combination of patterns, depending upon the type(s) of PATN.

It will drive you wacko - the main reason being we are dealing with polygenic characteristics rather than just one gene, and we only have some of the pieces of the puzzle...
     
    07-01-2011, 10:03 AM
  #25
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman    
Perhaps if it were worded differently - remember, I was replying to you post that stated snowcaps do not have PATN which, of course, is not true.

An Appy with no LP will have neither spots, characteristics, or color (although as you indicated if it has PATN it can pass that on).
An Appy with no PATN will have no color.
An Appy with LP and no PATN will usually have ( or develop) characteristics.
Both LP and PATN must be present for color and characteristics - the pattern being determined by the type of PATN and whether the horse is heterozygous or homozygous for LP. If it is homo for LP, in the presence of PATN, it will be a snowcap or fewspot, depending on the type of PATN, although there is some question as to whether a fewspot may just be the full expression of a snowcap. If the horse is heterozygous for LP, the pattern will be varnish roan, blanket, snowflake, or a combination of patterns, depending upon the type(s) of PATN.

It will drive you wacko - the main reason being we are dealing with polygenic characteristics rather than just one gene, and we only have some of the pieces of the puzzle...
Ah so now I know where NdAppy gets all their info from

Once again I have to agree and politely disagree.

I was mistaken on the LP/LP - PATN being a snowcap. My mentor whose raised Appy's for 15yrs explained that this type of horse could be anything from an apparent solid to eventually roaning out white. She reminded me that the leopard/ near leopard gene is called the PATN1 gene. What she also explained is that she believes a snowcap to be a LP/LP -PATN1, therefore incapable of throwing a leopard or near leopard. A snowcap will still have a PATN gene. But again as you say, it is mainly conjecture at this point because of the unknowns of the PATN1/ PATN.
     
    07-01-2011, 10:57 AM
  #26
Banned
Yeah, I wish they would find all the answers. I bred and raised Appys for 20 years, am getting a bit long in the tooth, and really wish they would find all the pieces of the puzzle in my lifetime so I would know for sure the answers to questions we have all had over the years. I'm not going to hold my breath, though - I wouldn't make a very good Smurf...


ETA: NdAppy is a good Appy resource person in her own right - I was just pulling her string...lol
     
    07-01-2011, 12:08 PM
  #27
Trained
Lol I knew you were Face. I still freely admit that you know way more when it comes to LP/PATN. And thanks.
     
    07-01-2011, 12:35 PM
  #28
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman    
Yeah, I wish they would find all the answers. I bred and raised Appys for 20 years, am getting a bit long in the tooth, and really wish they would find all the pieces of the puzzle in my lifetime so I would know for sure the answers to questions we have all had over the years. I'm not going to hold my breath, though - I wouldn't make a very good Smurf...


ETA: NdAppy is a good Appy resource person in her own right - I was just pulling her string...lol
I respect NdAppy's opinions very much... even the ones I don't agree with

No disrespect intended. I'm still learning about the Appy's myself and am always glad to learn new information. I can be very intense in my opinions and am still learning to tone down and make sure of all my facts.

Its why I found myself an experianced mentor to learn under. We work well together and since we're both interested in Appy's but in different disciplines we don't have to worry about excessive competition.

I'm actually on the other spectrum. I like having the abiltiy to choose or not choose certain horses to increase my chances of getting the likely color I want but would be completely bummed if they had all the answers. Its the surprise on the other end that peaked my interest in Appy's. My two foals have turned out better than I hoped colorwise (barring the grey gene passing to my colt) and exactly as I hoped in conformation and temperment.
     
    07-01-2011, 12:43 PM
  #29
Banned
Controversy is part of having Appys - just like Appytude. If it's not controversy about genetics, it's ApHC's registration policies which are destroying the breed, or outcrossing, or something or other...never a dull moment...
     
    07-01-2011, 03:34 PM
  #30
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman    
Controversy is part of having Appys - just like Appytude. If it's not controversy about genetics, it's ApHC's registration policies which are destroying the breed, or outcrossing, or something or other...never a dull moment...
Ahhh... don't even get me started on the registration.
     

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