Sun bleaching in black tails...is it genetic? - Page 3
   

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Sun bleaching in black tails...is it genetic?

This is a discussion on Sun bleaching in black tails...is it genetic? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        07-19-2013, 03:15 PM
      #21
    Trained
    It boils down to genetics, and unfortunately at this time the genetic reason for sunfading is not known.
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        07-19-2013, 04:02 PM
      #22
    Super Moderator
    My bay didn't have a problem with 'sun bleaching' until we came to the US - we don't get as much really bright sun in the UK
    None of my others are affected though
    There a link between copper deficiency and sun bleaching?
    Balanced Equine Nutrition - Link between minerals and coat bleaching
    Could this affect only certain horses in a group that all graze together?
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        07-23-2013, 08:17 AM
      #23
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    My bay didn't have a problem with 'sun bleaching' until we came to the US - we don't get as much really bright sun in the UK
    None of my others are affected though
    There a link between copper deficiency and sun bleaching?
    Balanced Equine Nutrition - Link between minerals and coat bleaching
    Could this affect only certain horses in a group that all graze together?
    Interesting, thanks for the article! And I finally just caved and dyed it! Looks much better now though!
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        07-23-2013, 08:48 AM
      #24
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    My bay didn't have a problem with 'sun bleaching' until we came to the US - we don't get as much really bright sun in the UK
    None of my others are affected though
    There a link between copper deficiency and sun bleaching?
    Balanced Equine Nutrition - Link between minerals and coat bleaching
    Could this affect only certain horses in a group that all graze together?
    So jaydee, any recommendations on a supplement that might fill in some of the potential gaps in minerals? I already ordered SmartDark and Handsome (I thought I ordered Black as Knight because I searched for it and this product was the only one that came up, seems to be their version of it), which says it contains these:

    IngredientPer ServingPer PoundGuaranteed Analysis per 30 gCrude Protein (Min)9%L-Lysine8%Crude Fat (Min)16%Omega 3 Fatty Acids 1450 mgSupplying:EPA90 mgDHA60 mgOmega 6 Fatty Acids 1340 mgCrude Fiber (Max)13%Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)100 mgFolic Acid62 mgBiotin5 mgCopper35 mgManganese60 mgZinc65 mg
    Other Ingredients

    Ingredient Statement: Biotin, Chia Seed (ground), Copper Polysaccharide Complex, Fenugreek Seed Powder, Fish Oil, Folic Acid, Dried Kelp, L-Lysine, Lecithin, Manganese Polysaccharide Complex, Mixed Tocopherols (natural preservative), Natural Flavors, Nutmeg (ground), Paprika, Riboflavin, Soybean Oil (cold pressed), Stabilized Flax Seed Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Zinc Polysaccharide Complex
         
        07-23-2013, 09:17 AM
      #25
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hoofprints in the Sand    
    So jaydee, any recommendations on a supplement that might fill in some of the potential gaps in minerals? I already ordered SmartDark and Handsome (I thought I ordered Black as Knight because I searched for it and this product was the only one that came up, seems to be their version of it), which says it contains these:

    IngredientPer ServingPer PoundGuaranteed Analysis per 30 gCrude Protein (Min)9%L-Lysine8%Crude Fat (Min)16%Omega 3 Fatty Acids 1450 mgSupplying:EPA90 mgDHA60 mgOmega 6 Fatty Acids 1340 mgCrude Fiber (Max)13%Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)100 mgFolic Acid62 mgBiotin5 mgCopper35 mgManganese60 mgZinc65 mg
    Other Ingredients

    Ingredient Statement: Biotin, Chia Seed (ground), Copper Polysaccharide Complex, Fenugreek Seed Powder, Fish Oil, Folic Acid, Dried Kelp, L-Lysine, Lecithin, Manganese Polysaccharide Complex, Mixed Tocopherols (natural preservative), Natural Flavors, Nutmeg (ground), Paprika, Riboflavin, Soybean Oil (cold pressed), Stabilized Flax Seed Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Zinc Polysaccharide Complex
    I'd looked at those products after I found the link with copper deficiency but was concerned that I was already feeding those vitamins and minerals in with the complete feed I use - she gets a mix of Sentinel Senior, Triple Crown safe starch forage and TC low starch pellets so I was worried about overloading her with something that might cause problems (plus spending money on a whole load of ingredients I didn't need).
    If it was my land that was copper deficient then I'd expect to see the same bleaching in the other horses but some humans can have deficiencies even on well balanced diets so maybe horses are the same
    Too much iron in the diet can cause copper and zinc imbalance - also related to ground you are on
    That would also cause poor hooves which she doesn't have
    I will maybe get a soil analysis done
    I started looking for a straight copper supplement but not getting any results that I felt comfortable with in terms of ordering on line
    Horses with Copper Deficiency
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        07-23-2013, 12:44 PM
      #26
    Green Broke
    Hmm good point...she is on a mix of these 2 grains at the barn where I board - I think 1/2 and 1/2...

    Essential KŪ Horse Supplement


    GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
    Crude Protein (Min.) .................................................. .................28.0%
    Lysine (Min.) .................................................. ..............................2.2%
    Methionine (Min.)............................................ .............................0.6%
    Methionine & Cystine (Min.) .................................................. ......1.0%
    Threonine (Min.)............................................ ...............................1.2%
    Crude Fat (Min.) .................................................. .........................6.0%
    Crude Fiber (Max.)............................................ ............................5.0%
    Calcium (Ca) (Min.)............................................ ..........................2.5%
    Calcium (Ca) (Max.) .................................................. ...................3.5%
    Phosphorus (P) (Min.) .................................................. .................1.5%
    Copper (Cu) (Min.) .................................................. ...............200 ppm
    Zinc (Zn) (Min.)............................................ ..........................400 ppm
    Selenium (Se) (Min.)............................................ ....................1.5 ppm
    Potassium (K) (Min.)............................................ .........................1.5%
    Magnesium (Mg) (Min.)............................................ ....................0.4%
    Manganese (Mn) (Min.) .................................................. ........240 ppm
    Cobalt (Co) (Min.) .................................................. ....................4 ppm
    Iron (Fe) (Min.)............................................ ...........................900 ppm
    Iodine (I) (Min.) .................................................. ........................4 ppm
    Salt (NaCl) (Min.) .................................................. .......................1.0%
    Salt (NaCl) (Max.) .................................................. ......................1.5%
    Vitamin A (Min.) .................................................. ...........30,000 IU/lb.
    Vitamin D (Min.) .................................................. .............2,500 IU/lb.
    Vitamin E (Min.)............................................ .......................500 IU/lb.
    Vitamin C (Min.)............................................ ........................80 mg/lb.
    Biotin (Min.) .................................................. .......................2.4 mg/lb.
    Thiamine (Min.)............................................ .........................30 mg/lb.
    Riboflavin (Min.) .................................................. ................8.5 mg/lb.
    Omega 6 Fatty Acids (Min.)............................................ ..............3.0%
    Omega 3Fatty Acids (Min.)............................................ ...............0.4%

    Kalm

    GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
    Crude Protein (Min.)............................................ ........... 14.0%
    Lysine (Min.)............................................ ...................... 0.75%
    Methionine (Min.) .................................................. ........ 0.22%
    Methionine & Cystine (Min.).......................................... 0.50%
    Threonine (Min.) .................................................. .......... 0.50%
    Crude Fat (Min.)............................................ ................... 8.0%
    Crude Fiber (Max.)............................................ ............. 20.0%
    Calcium (Ca) (Min.) .................................................. ....... 0.8%
    Calcium (Ca) (Max.)............................................ ............. 1.3%
    Phosphorus (P) (Min.) .................................................. .. 0.60%
    Copper (Cu) (Min.)............................................ ........... 65 ppm
    Zinc (Zn) (Min.) .................................................. ........200 ppm
    Selenium (Se) (Min.) .................................................. ..0.6 ppm
    Potassium (K) (Min.)............................................ ............ 1.0%
    Magnesium (Mg) (Min.)............................................ ..... 0.35%
    Manganese (Mn) (Min.)............................................ ...160 ppm
    Cobalt (Co) (Min.)............................................ ............1.3 ppm
    Iron (Fe) (Min.) .................................................. .........440 ppm
    Iodine (I) (Min.)............................................ ................1.1 ppm
    Salt (NaCl) (Min.)............................................ ................. 0.5%
    Salt (NaCl) (Max.)............................................ ................ 1.0%
    Vitamin A (Min.)............................................ ....... 5,500 IU/lb.
    Vitamin D (Min.)............................................ .......... 500 IU/lb.
    Vitamin E (Min.) .................................................. .... 200 IU/lb.
    Vitamin C (Min.) .................................................. ..... 25 mg/lb.
    Biotin (Min.)............................................ ................. 0.7 mg/lb.
    Thiamine (Min.) .................................................. ..... 8.5 mg/lb.
    Riboflavin (Min.)............................................ .......... 4.5 mg/lb.
    Omega 6 Fatty Acids (Min.) ............................................. 2.8%
    Omega 3 Fatty Acids (Min.) ............................................. 0.3%

         
        07-23-2013, 01:21 PM
      #27
    Green Broke
    I just sent a note to my trainer/barn manager asking how much of each feed Sandie eats per day, so that I can figure out exactly how much of each mineral she's already getting.

    She also gets 5-6 flakes of good quality Timothy/Orchard mix hay per day and goes out on grass pasture for 1-2 hours per day as well.
         
        07-23-2013, 01:59 PM
      #28
    Green Broke
    Scratch that, he just got back to me and she's on 4 1/2 lbs/day of Tribute Right Choice 14% pelleted feed...

    GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:
    Crude Protein (Min.)............................................ ...... 14.0%
    Lysine (Min.)............................................ ................... 0.8%
    Methionine (Min.) .................................................. ..... 0.3%
    Methionine & Cystine (Min.) ...................................... 0.5%
    Threonine (Min.) .................................................. ....... 0.5%
    Crude Fat (Min.)............................................ .............. 7.0%
    Crude Fiber (Max.) .................................................. .. 18.0%
    Calcium (Ca) (Min.) .................................................. .. 0.7%
    Calcium (Ca) (Max.)............................................ ........ 1.2%
    Phosphorus (P) (Min.) ................................................. 0.6%
    Copper (Cu) (Min.)............................................ ...... 50 ppm
    Zinc (Zn) (Min.) .................................................. .. 160 ppm
    Selenium (Se) (Min.) .............................................. 0.6 ppm
    Potassium (K) (Min.)............................................ ....... 0.7%
    Magnesium (Mg) (Min.)............................................ .. 0.2%
    Manganese (Mn) (Min.)......................................... 100 ppm
    Cobalt (Co) (Min.)............................................ ...... 3.5 ppm
    Iron (Fe) (Min.) .................................................. ... 200 ppm
    Iodine (I) (Min.)............................................ .......... 1.1 ppm
    Salt (NaCl) (Min.)............................................ ............ 0.5%
    Salt (NaCl) (Max.)............................................ ........... 1.0%
    Vitamin A (Min.)............................................ .. 3,500 IU/lb.
    Vitamin D (Min.)............................................ ..... 350 IU/lb.
    Vitamin E (Min.) ................................................. 100 IU/lb.
    Vitamin C (Min.) .................................................. 12 mg/lb.
    Biotin (Min.)............................................ ........... 0. 5 mg/lb.
    Thiamine (Min.) .................................................. ... 5 mg/lb.
    Riboflavin (Min.)............................................ ........ 4 mg/lb.
    Omega 6 Fatty Acids (Min.) ........................................ 1.7%
    Omega 3 Fatty Acids (Min.) ........................................ 0.2%
    Lactobacillus acidophilus (Min.).............. 113.5 milCFU/lb
    Lactobacillus casei (Min.) ........................ 113.5 milCFU/lb
    Bifidobacterium thermophilum (Min.) ...... 113.5milCFU/lb
    Enteroococcus faecium (Min.) ................. 113.5 milCFU/lb
         
        07-23-2013, 02:39 PM
      #29
    Green Broke
    So if she gets 4 1/2 lbs of this feed per day (if I am doing the conversion correctly!) she gets around 100 mg of copper per day and 325 mg of zinc per day? That seems awful high, when the websites I found recommended that a 1,300 lb horse (which she is NOT, she's more like 800-900, she is only 14.2hh) should get 60-90 mg of copper per day and only 40 mg/kg of zinc.

    Then in addition, I read that higher zinc:copper ratios can cause problems...and this feed has a 160mg:50mg zinc:copper ratio, so that doesn't sound good? But why would they make a feed like that if it wasn't a good idea? Hmm, this opens up a whole new book of nutritional research for me!
         
        07-23-2013, 02:55 PM
      #30
    Super Moderator
    I don't have time to go through the maths on that - whats the recommended daily feeding amount for that product?
    It always worries me that its so easy to over feed these mineral and vitamins - a lot wont hurt as they just get excreted but some can be harmful or upset the balance which could be whats happening.
    You should probably go through it all and make a table of exactly how much is coming from the feed in terms of minerals and vitamins because some will also come naturally from the hay and grass.
         

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