Testing for frame if the horse looks frame???

Okay, I have a hypothetical question. Can you safely assume a horse such as this carries "frame" or do you have to test for it?

http://www.stallionconnectiononline....nViewRanch.png

I was under the assumption that if a horse looked frame, he was frame, and there was no need to test a horse that appeared to be frame, because if he had the pattern that was proof enough. Someone else I spoke to said you could breed two horses that had this pattern if you tested for frame first because one of them may not be a carrier.

Who is right?

If they are tested and one is neg, then yes, you can breed them, and your friend is right on that count.

This horse does look frame to me. However, he has other white going on - sabino and splash IMO. And both of those could cause the markings associated with frame in some examples. If I, personally, was breeding, I would test any horse that is either grade or from a breed that carries frame, regardless of the phenotype presented.

Thank you so much.

So can a horse ever express frame phenotypically and NOT be a carrier for lethal white (assuming it is not a mistaken identity on the color pattern)?

Because my understanding is that it is actually homozygous frames that are lethal white, correct?

And frame x frame = 25% chance of homozygous frame?

If a horse expresses frame and tests negative for it I would demand a retest. Frame is ONLY lethal when homozygous.

Every breeding of frame to frame gives you a 25% of no frame, 50% chance of a frame carrier, and a 25% chance of a soon to be dead foal. Anyone who breeds two frame positive horses together is irresponsible IMO.

Yes, Yes and Yes.

No, they can't express frame and not be a carrier. What I am saying is that sometimes, sabino especially, and some dominant whites, can make a horse look 'frame-esque". Regardless of phenotype, I would test every horse in a breed that carries frame in the gene pool, if I were to ever breed them.

Okay, so the above is really a "no" (unless it's mistaken identity).

The lady I was discussing this with is actually a breeder of Paint horses, and she was fantasizing about breeding a mare of hers (that to me) looks obviously frame to the stallion I originally linked, and when I asked if she was worried about lethal white she just sort of paused and said she's sure the stallion has been tested and she can always test her mare.

I guess I am kind of afraid I have a better understanding of lethal white than she does.

I think she's been safe so far because her stallion is tobiano. But several of her mares look frame (to me). Hopefully if she breeds to an outside stallion the breeder will inform her of the risk. That would be the responsible thing to do.

What if they are expressing the frame overo pattern but aren't really a "frame" overo? Just the patterns seem to match what a frame looks like, which could be caused by other patterns (splash, sabino)

Therefore it's an overo, that looks frame, but actually isn't.

I've seen loudly marked "frame" overo's that are nn for LWOS.

(And then there's my mare who's minimally marked and is nO.)

Interesting. I guess that would fall under mistaken identity.

The stallion I linked is " OLWS + "

So that means he DOES carry frame, correct?