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What Color?

This is a discussion on What Color? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        11-23-2012, 08:40 PM
      #31
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lilruffian    
    Just a sort of off topic question; bay and brown are caused by the same thing correct? Black horse with agouti?
    If so, then is it correct to say that browns are just very dark versions of bay, where the black has not been restricted to such an extreme degree?
    Yes and no. They are separate mutations, so they should be named differently. If we were to continue that logic, then dominant white, tobiano, sabino and roan should all be called one name, as they are all mutations of the same gene.

    Brown and bay do act differently, it is not just a matter of one being darker than the other. They both do restrict black, but in different ways, not just to a lesser or higher degree.
         
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        11-23-2012, 10:06 PM
      #32
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lilruffian    
    Just a sort of off topic question; bay and brown are caused by the same thing correct? Black horse with agouti?
    If so, then is it correct to say that browns are just very dark versions of bay, where the black has not been restricted to such an extreme degree?
    Not technically.

    The genes for bay and brown ARE both variations of the agouti gene, but the genes themselves are distinct from each other. Bay is A. Brown is At. Non-agouti is a. A horse can have any combination of these genes (not including wild bay for now). Bay is dominant over brown, so a horse that is AAt will be bay but can produce brown foals.
    lilruffian likes this.
         
        11-24-2012, 12:29 AM
      #33
    Foal
    Please excuse me for not understanding but how can a horse like the one below be a brown when she has no indicaters such as tan between the back legs, muzzle, eyes, etc.of being brown nor does she have any brown in her pedigree. Her sire was also jet black. I understand that the filly is bown but what I don't understand is that how do you get a brown foal from 2 black parents. The pics of the sire do not do him justice. If you watch the video on the website it clearly shows his color as being a jet black not brown. I know his sire Principle Investment is brown but the fillies sire is black.
    Attached Images
    File Type: jpg 052.jpg (98.7 KB, 32 views)
         
        11-24-2012, 01:25 AM
      #34
    Green Broke
    To bhindes.. I think what everyone is telling you, is that even though a horse looks black even jet black, that it can actually be a brown . The only way to be certain is to have the color test done .
         
        11-24-2012, 03:20 AM
      #35
    Trained
    I can see brown indicators in the pictures provided of the dam. If they aren't there, then you need to show us pictures that don't show them. It doesn't have to be "tan" - any lightening there that isn't caused by sun fading is an indication. I can see that she is really dark, but if you look closely under her butt, you can see that she is brown there, not black (in the photos provided). You can also see this warmer colour under her belly towards her flank. Again, this is just in the pictures provided. I would expect her to be far more faded across the rest of the body if I were to believe that this colour change could be from sun fading.

    As far as brown not being in her pedigree, you said that she is out of a line of red based horses (chestnut/sorrel and palominos IIRC). This means that the gene needed to create brown could have hidden right up until your mare, as it only acts on black based horses. Red based horses can carry it, but they don't exhibit it.

    Put it another way - there is no way to get a brown foal from two parents that are truly black. One of them HAS to be brown or bay, there is no possible way around that fact.
    NdAppy, lilruffian and Tryst like this.
         
        11-24-2012, 04:20 AM
      #36
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
    I can see brown indicators in the pictures provided of the dam. If they aren't there, then you need to show us pictures that don't show them. It doesn't have to be "tan" - any lightening there that isn't caused by sun fading is an indication. I can see that she is really dark, but if you look closely under her butt, you can see that she is brown there, not black (in the photos provided). You can also see this warmer colour under her belly towards her flank. Again, this is just in the pictures provided. I would expect her to be far more faded across the rest of the body if I were to believe that this colour change could be from sun fading.

    As far as brown not being in her pedigree, you said that she is out of a line of red based horses (chestnut/sorrel and palominos IIRC). This means that the gene needed to create brown could have hidden right up until your mare, as it only acts on black based horses. Red based horses can carry it, but they don't exhibit it.

    Put it another way - there is no way to get a brown foal from two parents that are truly black. One of them HAS to be brown or bay, there is no possible way around that fact.
    Are there any research / educational websites where I can learn more Getting lots of conflicting thoughts from different forums.
         
        11-24-2012, 11:03 AM
      #37
    Green Broke
    I agree that it's hard to believe looking at the parents alone, as they are SO dark, but the filly speaks for herself. She is definitely not black, which means one parent is playing tricks with their color.
         
        11-24-2012, 11:43 AM
      #38
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
    I can see brown indicators in the pictures provided of the dam. If they aren't there, then you need to show us pictures that don't show them. It doesn't have to be "tan" - any lightening there that isn't caused by sun fading is an indication. I can see that she is really dark, but if you look closely under her butt, you can see that she is brown there, not black (in the photos provided). You can also see this warmer colour under her belly towards her flank. Again, this is just in the pictures provided. I would expect her to be far more faded across the rest of the body if I were to believe that this colour change could be from sun fading.

    As far as brown not being in her pedigree, you said that she is out of a line of red based horses (chestnut/sorrel and palominos IIRC). This means that the gene needed to create brown could have hidden right up until your mare, as it only acts on black based horses. Red based horses can carry it, but they don't exhibit it.

    Put it another way - there is no way to get a brown foal from two parents that are truly black. One of them HAS to be brown or bay, there is no possible way around that fact.

    I also mentioned her sire is a true jet black as well. I have pics of the dams sire but they are not on a computer. I have attached more pics of the dam. Tell me what you see. I will also have the dam checked, but I do not believe she is brown. I beleive the sire is. He also has a lot of brown horses in his pedigree including his sire.
    Attached Images
    File Type: jpg PICT1014.jpg (61.0 KB, 21 views)
    File Type: jpg PICT1015.jpg (52.2 KB, 22 views)
         

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