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What Color is Kal?

This is a discussion on What Color is Kal? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        12-04-2012, 11:18 AM
      #11
    Weanling
    Oh awesome :) we were very worried about him for quite a while but the vet said he looked good and healthy.

    Thanks for the info.
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        12-04-2012, 11:43 AM
      #12
    Foal
    I don't see the gray part you mentioned, but The Dam is defiantly some sort of Varnish chestnut, the foal is very handsome, he looks to obviously be a blanket appy lol. His base seems to be a Chestnut/Sorrel, he also has some sort of Overo, probably Frame or Splash due to his face. Which would make since if his Sire was QH.
         
        12-04-2012, 12:19 PM
      #13
    Weanling
    From what I have read about the LP gene the mare is NOT a red roan (associated with the roan gene) in the traditional sense but she is roaning out in the sense that she has a mixture of white hairs throughout her body. Some appaloosa bred horses that come out solid don't develop their "characteristics" until many months or years later. Similar in the expression of the Grey gene... IMO the mare is at least part appaloosa.

    Also, this may not be accurate in terminology to people who breed appys but from a journal I read that did a study on the LP gene inheritance, the "roaning" IS an expression of the LP gene an should not not be confused with A ROAN (which is genetically different) because the same gene that makes spots ALSO causes the motley of white hairs to appear scattered on the body. The LP gene manifests itself in more than one way.

    In addition, the baby is a chestnut snowcap (who may develop spots later) - for all intents and purposes - snowcaps also tend to produce more offspring with characteristics much like 'white' few spot producers are said to be homozygous for the LP gene, however, homozygousity and the LP gene is an entirely different subject

    Here are some good reads:
    Global Horse Culture: Not quite roan, II
    And
    Appaloosa Colour Pattern Transmission
         
        12-04-2012, 01:04 PM
      #14
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smguidotti    
    From what I have read about the LP gene the mare is NOT a red roan (associated with the roan gene) in the traditional sense but she is roaning out in the sense that she has a mixture of white hairs throughout her body. Some appaloosa bred horses that come out solid don't develop their "characteristics" until many months or years later. Similar in the expression of the Grey gene... IMO the mare is at least part appaloosa.

    Also, this may not be accurate in terminology to people who breed appys but from a journal I read that did a study on the LP gene inheritance, the "roaning" IS an expression of the LP gene an should not not be confused with A ROAN (which is genetically different) because the same gene that makes spots ALSO causes the motley of white hairs to appear scattered on the body. The LP gene manifests itself in more than one way.

    In addition, the baby is a chestnut snowcap (who may develop spots later) - for all intents and purposes - snowcaps also tend to produce more offspring with characteristics much like 'white' few spot producers are said to be homozygous for the LP gene, however, homozygousity and the LP gene is an entirely different subject

    Here are some good reads:
    Global Horse Culture: Not quite roan, II
    And
    Appaloosa Colour Pattern Transmission
    The foal is not a snowcap...
         
        12-04-2012, 01:11 PM
      #15
    Weanling
    Looks snowcap to me - a small blanket be it - what would you call it?

    Also, I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all but this breeder also describes one of her mini's which appears to have the same pattern expression as a "minimal patterned snowcap"


    Image from: http://www.crittercreek.com/critterc...foals2008.html
         
        12-04-2012, 03:34 PM
      #16
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smguidotti    
    looks snowcap to me - a small blanket be it - what would you call it?

    Also, I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all but this breeder also describes one of her mini's which appears to have the same pattern expression as a "minimal patterned snowcap.
    The OP's foal is a blanket...some might call it a lacey blanket, although that is just a slang term. A snowcap has no base color or spots within the primary boundaries of the blanket - a pure white area if you will. There is base color throughout the blanket, as well aws spots. Furthermore it is my understanding from one of the OP's posts that the sire is a QH, and a snowcap can only result from Appy to Appy breeding, with both parents colored. What the breeder of the mini says is not of consequence - lots of horses are misidentified as to color or pattern. The foal is what it is - a chestnut blanket...
    NdAppy likes this.
         
        12-04-2012, 05:02 PM
      #17
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Faceman    
    The OP's foal is a blanket...some might call it a lacey blanket, although that is just a slang term. A snowcap has no base color or spots within the primary boundaries of the blanket - a pure white area if you will. There is base color throughout the blanket, as well aws spots. Furthermore it is my understanding from one of the OP's posts that the sire is a QH, and a snowcap can only result from Appy to Appy breeding, with both parents colored. What the breeder of the mini says is not of consequence - lots of horses are misidentified as to color or pattern. The foal is what it is - a chestnut blanket...
    I can't really see any spots on the OP's foal so I just assumed that any appy expressing white like the OP's foal and the mini I pictured were deemed "snow caps" But you are right, I agree with you now - I forgot you need two LP genes to make a snowcap

    I just wish you would have explained that the first time instead of only saying "the foal is not a snowcap..." - it's a bit rude.
         
        12-04-2012, 05:58 PM
      #18
    Weanling
    Both mare and colt are 100% Quarter horse. I am intrigued and will post bloodlines as soon as they are registered. I am hoping it happens soon, because with the owner 100% sure that they are and will be registered AQHA, I have no idea why they look like Appys.
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        12-04-2012, 06:47 PM
      #19
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smguidotti    
    I just wish you would have explained that the first time instead of only saying "the foal is not a snowcap..." - it's a bit rude.
    Oh come on...there is absolutely nothing rude about just saying it isn't a snowcap. If you want an explanation, then ask, as you did, and you will get an answer. Actually, I assumed you meant "snowflake" instead of "snowcap", which is why I didn't go into a long explanation, as the foal is obviously not a snowcap to an Appy person. A lot of non Appy people get the two terms mixed up.

    To correct the rest of your post, the foal is indeed a red roan, which is what the ApHC classifies a chestnut varnish roan as. The foal has a dual pattern - blanket, and varnish roan.

    From the ApHC "Guide to Identifying"...

    Base Coat Colors

    Red Roan
    Description: White with spots over back and hips. Face Markings: Star and snip. Leg Markings: Pastern left hind, partial half-pastern right front, lightning marks right hind.

    Personally, I don't like even using the term "roan" for Appys, because it just confuses people that think in terms of regular roans, but that's the way they classify them nonetheless...I wish they had chosen a different term to use than "roan"...

    Guide to Identifying an Appaloosa
         
        12-04-2012, 06:57 PM
      #20
    Green Broke
    I don't see varnish roan on the foal yet. Doesn't mean it won't show up later in life, of course. (Maybe I missed the part of the conversation where someone pointed it out, though?)

    The text descriptions on ApHC's website are sadly incomplete. Compare their description of red roan to chestnut:

    Chestnut



    Description: White with spots over back and hips.
    Face Markings: Star, stripe and snip.
    Leg Markings: Stocking left hind, partial stocking right fore, partial half-stocking right hind.

    They don't even mention the varnish roan characteristics in the red roan blurb. As far as I can tell, that whole little box on their website has no point at all. It's listed under "Base coat colors" but doesn't describe anything about the base color for any of the "examples."
         

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