what color and pattern will I get - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 12-28-2011, 07:40 PM Thread Starter
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what color and pattern will I get

What color and pattern will I get from this breeding? Sire a black and white tobiano. Dam grullo tobiano with blue eyes.
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post #2 of 21 Old 12-28-2011, 09:39 PM
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do you know their black status (such as are they homozygous for black?) and the mare's dun status? Also have they been tested for frame?
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post #3 of 21 Old 12-28-2011, 10:24 PM
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I see frame in both of them for what it's worth. I hope they are tested before you breed them.

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post #4 of 21 Old 12-28-2011, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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the grullo is from red dun solid and a black tobiano, the black and white is from black AQHA and a brown tobiano; mares pedigree below. sire is negative for LWO dam has not been tested yet but will before mating occurs.
I have been told by some paint people that she is tobiano and others say she is tovero.
Rookies Fancy Galaxy Paint

sires pedigree:
Hrs Midnite Romeo Paint
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post #5 of 21 Old 12-29-2011, 12:13 AM
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"Tovero" is a catch all term that shouldn't be used any more. It means that she is tobiano and at least one other white pattern. She definitely has at least one more white pattern, and at least one of either frame or splash due to her blue eyes. I am leaning toward frame in her case, as her nose still has a lot of colour. Splash tends to want to make face markings bottom heavy, and would therefore erase that colour there. I also think frame because of the way the white runs along her neck towards the top - leaving a nice frame of colour at the top and bottom.

Colour wise: Neither is carrying agouti, so no bay or brown babies for them. Mare is heterozygous for black, carrying red. She is also hetero for dun. Don't know if stallion is hetero or homo for black, impossible to know without testing. Foal could be black or chestnut, with or without dun.

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post #6 of 21 Old 12-29-2011, 12:54 AM Thread Starter
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Can you tell me where you see frame in the sire, I'm new to the paints, and truthfully the patterns confuse me, it used to be the tobiano had white across the back and overo didn't. Now they have splash, sabiano, frame, and tovero, is there an easy way to keep them straight??
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post #7 of 21 Old 12-29-2011, 01:11 AM
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It's mostly the way the white seems to want to travel across his barrel rather than to his legs.

Ignore tovero. It's a word that should never be used. The four white patterns are tobiano, splash, frame and sabino. Each has different characteristics to the way they display and interact.

Frame tends to make top-heavy facial markings. It wants to spread out and make a bald face, much like it is on this horse. It will avoid the ears if possible though. Again, this is just demonstrating the whole 'frame' nature that it was named after - it wants to leave white on the nose and the ears, thus making the face white framed with colour.

Splash tends to be bottom heavy. It often gives blazes an 'apron' appearance, where they noticeably flare toward the nose. Splash also tends to 'slip' and make face white uneven on the face - more to the left or right, not centered. Again, splash will try to avoid the ears, but will try to cover the eyes if it can.

Sabino tends to be the 'messy' white. It likes to give the horse a chin or lower lip spot at least. Its edges tend to be less neatly defined, and often seem to roan or bleed out to the colour parts. Sabino seems to also like to keep white off the eyes, and like the other two, will also try to avoid the ears.

Read more: Oh Painted Ponies...

I would also add that tobiano leaves the face alone, and likes to run vertical. It likes high white on the legs, and often higher in the back than the front. It tends to cross the back at hips and withers first, then the rest of the back if it's extensive.

Frame likes to move horizontally along the horse. It leaves a 'frame' of colour around the back and the belly to a certain extent. It tries to minimise leg white - without another pattern, one would expect no leg white with a frame horse.

Splash tends to be bottom heavy on the rest of the horse, not just the face. It often gives high whites on the front legs before the back legs. The edges of white with splash tend to be fairly neat.

Sabino is the catch-all for the rest of the white that occurs. It tends to be messy, and have roaned edges. It likes leg white, and belly white.
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Last edited by Chiilaa; 12-29-2011 at 01:16 AM.
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post #8 of 21 Old 12-29-2011, 01:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiilaa View Post
It's mostly the way the white seems to want to travel across his barrel rather than to his legs.

Ignore tovero. It's a word that should never be used. The four white patterns are tobiano, splash, frame and sabino. Each has different characteristics to the way they display and interact.

Frame tends to make top-heavy facial markings. It wants to spread out and make a bald face, much like it is on this horse. It will avoid the ears if possible though. Again, this is just demonstrating the whole 'frame' nature that it was named after - it wants to leave white on the nose and the ears, thus making the face white framed with colour.

Splash tends to be bottom heavy. It often gives blazes an 'apron' appearance, where they noticeably flare toward the nose. Splash also tends to 'slip' and make face white uneven on the face - more to the left or right, not centered. Again, splash will try to avoid the ears, but will try to cover the eyes if it can.

Sabino tends to be the 'messy' white. It likes to give the horse a chin or lower lip spot at least. Its edges tend to be less neatly defined, and often seem to roan or bleed out to the colour parts. Sabino seems to also like to keep white off the eyes, and like the other two, will also try to avoid the ears.

Read more: Oh Painted Ponies...

I would also add that tobiano leaves the face alone, and likes to run vertical. It likes high white on the legs, and often higher in the back than the front. It tends to cross the back at hips and withers first, then the rest of the back if it's extensive.

Frame likes to move horizontally along the horse. It leaves a 'frame' of colour around the back and the belly to a certain extent. It tries to minimise leg white - without another pattern, one would expect no leg white with a frame horse.

Splash tends to be bottom heavy on the rest of the horse, not just the face. It often gives high whites on the front legs before the back legs. The edges of white with splash tend to be fairly neat.

Sabino is the catch-all for the rest of the white that occurs. It tends to be messy, and have roaned edges. It likes leg white, and belly white.
^^ this was very informative! KUDOS! (:
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post #9 of 21 Old 12-29-2011, 01:34 AM Thread Starter
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thanks for the run down on the patterns. I guess she is a mix of all of them because she does have the roaning in some of her color also it more pronounced on her other side.
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post #10 of 21 Old 12-29-2011, 12:23 PM
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I'd also like to add that if a horse that is very obviously carrying Frame has a loudly expressed pattern, then it is also carrying at least one other pattern gene. Frame manipulates other pattern genes, it will not put a large amount of white on a horse by itself.

I really think the mare is carrying Splash, although since there's no test for it, that will remain speculation. Actually, I'd be willing to bet she's got the whole range of pattern genes.
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