What genes make what white? - Page 2
 
 

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What genes make what white?

This is a discussion on What genes make what white? within the Horse Colors and Genetics forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Sabino Roan
  • Blue eyed lucy eye color

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    08-31-2012, 03:43 PM
  #11
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by MangoRoX87    
Thanks guys!!! VERY informative!! Lots of stuff that I will certainly use!!

I guess what I kind of meant...is like...when your looking at what I guess you would call a solid, how can you tell what gene is causing the shape of the white pattern (blazes, socks, etc)? Like I read that the sabino will make more symmetrical face markings, which doesn't make sense because theirs normaly have jagged edges when it's on their bodies...
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Your welcome - I love when all the useless information I know actually helps someone lol

Before I begin, there is not a whole lot of information out there that explains exactly what is going on with these genetic modifiers - most of the time the process is unclear.

Looking at a solid bay, black or chestnut it's impossible to tell if it carries any mutation, typically solid paints do not throw color. When you look at a solid "white" horse it is tricky to tell sometimes too, however, the eyes can help clue you in on what is going on (even on a solid agouti/non-agouti) . . .

Even with that said, there a number of diluents that will cause, for instance, blue eyes such as cremello. But every diluent tweaks the animal differently. As previously mentioned, some cause deafness or organ failure.

"The Medicine Hat Paint has been documented as being produced by crossing frame overos on tobianos, sabinos on frame overos and sabinos on tobianos,"(APHA Coat Color Guide, 7). The problem, however, is that multiple copies of Paint genes produce more white on horses and some pairings may create lethal white foals. Additionally, like with ball pythons that mentioned earlier (the pinto python) there is also a blue eyed leucistic python much like a maximom white, blue-eyed paint/pinto horse, that is a "super form" of it's mutation - that is, it is homozygous for such diluent.


My speculation is that "maximum white" sabino horses are homozygous (the more copies of the gene, the more white you get)

Markings can be very hard to define especially because the genes which cause the different patters seem to behave co-dominately. That is, when you mix tobiano + overo you may get a 3rd phenotype (visual representation) - a TOVERO, however, TOBIANO is the only dominant pattern.


My point with all this word garbadge is that you may be trying to label an animal as such but in actuality is actually visually dispalying two or more patterns/genes - this is why it is tricky to TRULLY answer your question.

But for the easy ones I reccomend you take a look at the APHA's color guide: http://www.apha.com/forms/PDFFiles/g...07ColorGen.pdf

It explains what you are looking for as far as pattern differentiation is concerned . . . However, the information is still very superficial as far explaining WHY such things happen.

This website, in my opinion, gives good information on sabino patterns: sabino horses

Hope this helps more . . . If you need help researching further or have a more specific question let me know - I enjoy reading up on this stuff :)

-Sara
     
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    08-31-2012, 05:37 PM
  #12
Started
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression, that the word 'Tovero' went out years ago and true colour gurus, cannot abide the use of it. Don't know much about the APHA but those very knowledgeable in colour, are constantly stating on the net, of how often they get it wrong.

The best forum to really understand colour, is...

Forums | Equine Color Genetics

Lizzie
smrobs, Chiilaa, Poseidon and 1 others like this.
     
    08-31-2012, 06:17 PM
  #13
Trained
Many folks dislike using Tovero as well as Overo since they very broad, general classifications. As for the APHA, they are well aware of modern genetics but there is really no motivation for them to change from the old terms.
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    08-31-2012, 06:56 PM
  #14
Weanling
I don't really keep up with the new classifications, I sort of gave up when the AQHA would not recognize a "Dunalino" (do they now?) but a I was browsing the APHA book I noticed a lot of inaccuracies such as calling a horse, "brown." BUt at least the APHA provides a CREDIBLE SOURCE for her powerpoint which is most important to professors, I would assume, because forums - although the information may be more accurate, however, forums are as credible as quoting The Onion.

It's too bad the registry will not recognize modern research on genetics - I think everybody would appreciate some consensus on these topics lol
     
    08-31-2012, 07:26 PM
  #15
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by smguidotti    
BUt at least the APHA provides a CREDIBLE SOURCE for her powerpoint which is most important to professors, I would assume, because forums - although the information may be more accurate, however, forums are as credible as quoting The Onion.
I would quote people on this forum far before I would quote the APHA in terms of color knowledge. If it doesn't appear credible, I would track down a website that is far more updated on information and scientific fact than a registry.

To the OP's original question:

Yes, you can tell some white patterns that are minimally expressed by "normal" markings.

My mare is positive for Frame (I have not tested her for sabino yet though). She only has a blaze and a small pastern. Her blaze is very top heavy and then spreads out over her nose. Frame loves top-heavy face white and will try to spread out over the face. Frame does not put white on the legs either.

Splash loves bottom heavy face markings and body markings, as if the horse was dipped in paint. For example, I would bet money that this gelding is heterozygous for one Splash mutation (Splash is an incomplete dominant, like cream, meaning one copy puts markings and two copies puts even more markings) and is entirely possible he also carries frame with the way his blaze spreads at the top.



Sabino likes chin white and symmetrical facial markings. It also likes jagged edges on what look like normal socks. Like this guy's socks:


Or long jagged "lightning bolt" streaks coming from the socks. I know a gelding whose hind socks look like that. I wish I had a picture..

Frame, splash, and sabino are much more likely to express very minimally than tobiano, though minimal tobiano can and does happen. There was a mare posted here not long ago that had a wonky blaze and threw a tobiano foal. Most minimal tobianos have their normal high leg white, but unlike splash, which is also likely to give high leg white, they have completely solid faces.
     
    08-31-2012, 10:17 PM
  #16
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by smguidotti    
I don't really keep up with the new classifications, I sort of gave up when the AQHA would not recognize a "Dunalino" (do they now?) but a I was browsing the APHA book I noticed a lot of inaccuracies such as calling a horse, "brown." BUt at least the APHA provides a CREDIBLE SOURCE for her powerpoint which is most important to professors, I would assume, because forums - although the information may be more accurate, however, forums are as credible as quoting The Onion.

It's too bad the registry will not recognize modern research on genetics - I think everybody would appreciate some consensus on these topics lol
They are not inaccurate in calling a horse brown. Brown is a testable genetically different version of agouti.
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    08-31-2012, 11:08 PM
  #17
Showing
I am not up to date on all the pinto genes as I don't have paint horses and I just haven't taken the time to really learn the different patterns.

I have been told that this horse (he was mine for a while) is a pretty standard representation of tobiano. I'll depend on others who are more educated in the patterns to verify that though. Please forgive the really crappy photos, the only ones I have of him without a saddle are even worse quality. But, he had no white markings where the saddle sat.




This filly was basically the definition of Sabino. She did not carry a "roan" gene, all that roaning is caused by the sabino gene...along with the splotchy white markings on her sides/neck/hips and the jagged edges to her face and leg markings.




And, I strongly suspect that this filly is likely carrying Splash, what with the high whites, broad face stripe, and the belly spot being the only white she has. She's not been tested though and I probably never will as she will never be bred. If I do, it will only be for my own curiosity. I'll be honest though, I'm not sure if all pinto genes will create a blue eye or if that particular trait is only seen with some genes.




     
    09-01-2012, 12:59 AM
  #18
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poseidon    
I would quote people on this forum far before I would quote the APHA in terms of color knowledge. If it doesn't appear credible, I would track down a website that is far more updated on information and scientific fact than a registry.
Well, yes, but even my teachers in high school would not accept a forum or websites as a source. As far as equine color goes there really are not a lot credible sources out there that a professor/institute would deem acceptable. Unless you have access to online journals/periodicals - which unfortunately you have to pay for unless your school provides you with access.
The registry, however, is still a database with mostly accurate information.

I'm only emphasizing this part so her bibliography is admissible.
     
    09-01-2012, 01:39 AM
  #19
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by smguidotti    
The registry, however, is still a database with mostly accurate information.
Except that registries are NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate, so should NEVER be used as references. They are simply decades behind current research, and show no signs of changing that any time soon. There are credibility checks you can do on any website, and most universities will allow pretty much any website as a reference as long as you support it with a cred check. The only exception to this tends to be Wikipedia, which is open source and so therefore easy to manipulate.
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    09-01-2012, 01:47 AM
  #20
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by smrobs    


Tobiano, and frame at least. See the way the white is moving along the neck and body horizontally? That is classic of frame. Also remember that tobiano alone does not like neck white - it likes to cross the spine at the shoulders and no further forward. I want to say there is sabino there too, the face white looks fairly symmetrical, and the leg white has the jagged look I would associate with sabino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smrobs    


Sabino, yes, causing the roaning effect. Also frame - the body white is horizontal, neck white is present, and the face white is top heavy, spreading above the eyes. Another indicator is the dark and interrupted legs. Frame doesn't like leg white, so it is battling with the sabino to keep dark legs, hence the disconnection between white on upper leg and lower leg, and a nearly entirely dark leg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smrobs    




Splash for sure, also maybe frame. Just a bit of a spread above her eyes in the white, which is an indicator. Also that one leg that has fairly minimal white when she has highs on the other three legs.

As for eyes being blue, at this stage they are linked to frame and splash. However, that is just theory, and so far no definite link has been found.
smrobs likes this.
     

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