What patterns do you see? - Page 3 - The Horse Forum

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post #21 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:08 PM
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If bred to another frame carrier, he has a 25% chance of producing a lethal white foal. He himself is not lethal white, no. But he carries one gene for frame - which is lethal white. Lethal white is not lethal if the horse has one copy (heterozygous). However, if the horse has two copies (homozygous) then it is lethal.

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post #22 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chiilaa View Post
If bred to another frame carrier, he has a 25% chance of producing a lethal white foal. He himself is not lethal white, no. But he carries one gene for frame - which is lethal white. Lethal white is not lethal if the horse has one copy (heterozygous). However, if the horse has two copies (homozygous) then it is lethal.

Again, I think this was just a communication error

I know what a "lethal white" foal is and what happens (very sad). All I was saying was that there are "frame overos" that will not produce a "lethal white" foal and there are that will. Right? Not all "frames" will produce a lethal white which is why there are tests available to determine that, correct?

Last edited by StraitGirl; 02-08-2012 at 10:18 PM.
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post #23 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:18 PM
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No, you are incorrect. Frame is Frame and there is only one. Any horse that tests positive for LWO (Frame) will have a 25% chance of producing a LWO foal when bred to another Frame-positive horse.
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post #24 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:20 PM
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No. That's where the confusion is.

A horse that is frame is a horse with one copy of the gene. A frame horse always has the chance to produce a lethal foal if bred to another frame horse. There is no separation of the two.

The confusion in this case is the term "overo". Ditch it. It is a stupid term that causes confusion just like this, and this is the confusion that often ends with a lethal foal. "Overo" simply means "ummm, a white pattern, pretty sure it's not tobiano, can't be bothered figuring out what it is". In reality, there are quite a few different white patterns, so three of them are being lumped together under "overo" - frame, splash, and sabino. We know enough now to separate these three and should do so.
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post #25 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Poseidon View Post
No, you are incorrect. Frame is Frame and there is only one. Any horse that tests positive for LWO (Frame) will have a 25% chance of producing a LWO foal when bred to another Frame-positive horse.

OK.....then I misunderstood I knew that not all "overos" would sire/throw a lethal foal but that's where it stopped.

So...if he's a true "frame", then he will ALWAYS have the possibility of throwing a lethal white foal unless bred to the right mare. Not that it matters at this time as we were not necessarily planning on breeding him as stated in the beginning, but that's good to know

Back to the reason of my topic/post, I'm just curious of what everyone sees as the possible patterns of my horses
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post #26 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by StraitGirl View Post
I'm getting confused on the terminoligy here, lol! Canada and the US word things differently

I know my colt is a "frame overo" in pattern and not a "lethal white". He may or may not however, test to be a lethal carrier (or....sire a lethal white foal). The mare I was reffering to was not a "lethal white", simply tested positive and could produce one.
No wording is all the same wherever your from yes terminology is the same here in Canada.
Your Boy shows most obvious Frame & splash.Most obvious indications of splash on him is his white legs & the white coming from the Base of his tail{White in tail is seen with tobi's but it starts at Top of tail}.
Horses that are genotypical frame overo are carriers of OLWS,they carry one copy of the gene{heterzygous}.When mated with another OLWS carrier there is 2 genes that can be passed on{one from each parent}.The baby has a 1 in 4 chance of recieving both those copies ,that makes him Homozygous for frame or Lethal white Baby.Frame in it's homozygous form= lethal
That is why we test for OLWS ,breeding OLWS positive to a non carrier you can eliminate the risk of having a lethal baby.The other overo patterns Splash & Sabino don't carry OLWS,a Tobiano does not either.Problem is many horses these days are a mix of the patterns so frame can hide among the other patterns.
The Frame Gene is good at hiding or minimally express itself so just looking at a horse you may not see it in it's markings,that is why testing any breeding stock is important.

Last edited by paintedpastures; 02-08-2012 at 10:32 PM.
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post #27 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chiilaa View Post
No. That's where the confusion is.

A horse that is frame is a horse with one copy of the gene. A frame horse always has the chance to produce a lethal foal if bred to another frame horse. There is no separation of the two.

The confusion in this case is the term "overo". Ditch it. It is a stupid term that causes confusion just like this, and this is the confusion that often ends with a lethal foal. "Overo" simply means "ummm, a white pattern, pretty sure it's not tobiano, can't be bothered figuring out what it is". In reality, there are quite a few different white patterns, so three of them are being lumped together under "overo" - frame, splash, and sabino. We know enough now to separate these three and should do so.

Chiilaa, I agree with your comments on the "overo" term. I don't understand why the APHA does not change their rules for overos and make it manditory to test a horse for what form of overo gene they truly are before registering them.

Each test costs $25, not that expensive if you ask me. And what those tests could save in the end, is endless. The APHA has no control over what owner's decide to breed their horses so by testing each foal before regisitering them could eliminate so many problems and, in the "frame" situation, death.

Last edited by StraitGirl; 02-08-2012 at 10:46 PM.
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post #28 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for eveything learned!

I'm still curious of what everyone sees as the possible patterns of my horses, especially my filly
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post #29 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
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paintedpastures..... Were you not an APHA breeder in MB and then got out of that area to further your breeding of minis? If I'm correct, you offered some beautiful APHA prospects for sale
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post #30 of 33 Old 02-08-2012, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by StraitGirl View Post
paintedpastures..... Were you not an APHA breeder in MB and then got out of that area to further your breeding of minis? If I'm correct, you offered some beautiful APHA prospects for sale
No I think I know the breeder who you are talking about but no that is not me
I have Shown & Bred APHA horses, but in Alberta
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