Conformation is the Question Through a QH breeders eyes - Page 3

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Conformation is the Question Through a QH breeders eyes

This is a discussion on Conformation is the Question Through a QH breeders eyes within the Horse Conformation Critique forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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    09-06-2012, 11:55 AM
I'm in the barn on my phone, will post more later. Interesting stuff to ponder for sure!

If both sides end up mad at me, oh well. I don't do cliques either ;) She was a nicely put together mare that served the purpose she was created for. I can appreciate nice horse flesh regardless of what's behind it. I already take heat from my grandfather, he's a very dyed in the wool working qh man and I now own the family farm he started and did the ultimate sacrilege (in his mind) when I bought myself a Hanoverian to ride for fun. One of his friends stopped in and saw my big mare in the pasture and told me "That's the ugliest qh I've ever seen." I just giggled and continued doing chores.
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    09-06-2012, 12:23 PM
When people pick on my horses I just tell them they are QH's from a hundred years in the future.....when they look at me weird I say if the standards keep changing like they have been
    09-06-2012, 01:28 PM
Green Broke
I was a dairy farmer and had grade Holstein cattle. I bred my best cows to the best bulls I could find that offset the worse features of my cows and added some production.. but since the cows produced well (had a herd avg in the top 3% in the State) I was more interested in a structurally sound cow that would last physically.

I think that farmers and ranchers bred dogs and horses and cattle etc. the same way. They used the best they had.. and if the best horse was from a feral herd they used that horse.

The thing to recall in this is that the feral horses of the middle 1800's had mostly Barb blood and were really good horses. The Native Americans used them and while small, the outlasted the Government troop horses and were faster. The US Government actually put Draft Horse Stallions in the feral herds to water down the stock to something slower.. (per Dr. Deb Bennett's books and literature). The result is what we see today in the feral herds.. an occasional nice one (and there are!) and a lot of not so nice ones.

From my understanding and past reading, the Thoroughbred was added to the Quarterhorse to add speed and a more consistent type. Remember.. in those days there were no horse trailers, shipped semen, TV and so forth. That same little ranch horse was often called upon to be in a horse race on Saturday night.

Men and not a few women defined themselves by their horses! Status was to have a really good horse... it was prestigious to have a Thoroughbred in a place (Western US) where getting such a thing was rare. Those horses came from the East and some even from England. English Blood was known.. such as Imported Messenger who influenced both the American Thoroughbred AND the American Standardbred!

Horses were, in those days, the Rolls Royce, BMW, etc. of today. Most of the population was relegated to something much less as a ride.. and on some occasions, those "lesser" rides showed up at a competition and cleaned house.. and deals were struck and horses were bred.. sometimes in secret.

Most American breeds of horses go back to some unknown mare or stallion... and is many cases it was known... but not shared. Justin Morgan was such a horse... as was Hambletonian...

Interesting in your list of statistics is the number of Cleveland Bays and Suffolk Punch.. both now rare breeds because their usefulness has gone by the wayside. No one needs a Rangey tall Carriage horse that breeds both true to color and type to make matched teams and 4 in hands.. and no one needs a nice small compact draft horse like the Suffolk. I always liked both these breeds. I suppose the Cleveland bay was replaced in today's world by the more athletic Warmbloods and the faster racing Standardbred. The Suffolk just simply is not used.. always sorrel and not flashy.. so is not favored for any replacement 'sport.'

My breed of dog is the German Shepherd. I had one that herded cattle on my dairy farm.. and that dog had me fall in love with the breed. Sadly, that was years ago and the breed has segued into three breeds (American show, German Show and Working lines)... none of which are what that first dog was.
    09-06-2012, 01:31 PM
Green Broke
And I agree with MHFoundation.. I do not care the breed or the lines UNLESS I am breeding. A good horse is a good horse (your mare is).

When breeding I have been taught a less than stellar individual out of Stellar lines is better to use for breeding than a Stellar Individual out of mediocre lines. Niatross (the famous Standardbred Pacer) was such an animal. He was syndicated and an entire upstate NY farm was built around him... and he was a dud stud. Farm was foreclosed on I believe....
    09-06-2012, 01:38 PM
We always say look in the mines for diamonds. You can find diamonds in the rough but there more in the mine.
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    09-06-2012, 02:02 PM
LOVE the black one!!!
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    09-07-2012, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Elana    
The Quarterhorse was a horse designed out of a mix of range mustang and Thoroughbred. Originally small and with a lot of "cow" and very fast at short distances. The rounder hind quarter and steeper croup allows the horse to curl back over himself to cut a cow. The less open shoulder allows the horse to lower his head more readily to face the challenge of a cow. The large hind quarters allow for a solid stop at the end of a heading or calf rope as well as a powerful sprint after that same calf or cow to get her roped (or turned).

An open shoulder is usually coupled with a higher head set.. and a cow can get under the neck (more easily). A flat croup interferes with curling the hind end under the horse to make a fast turn or a fast get away. There is less power in starts, stops and turns in a flatter croup.

The Quarterhorse has changed.. becoming more refined and many have NO "cow." The halter Quarterhorse has developed into an animal that has too little bone, too small feet, too large a body and is bow legged behind (and often camped under). These are faults.. not something to breed for!!!

The Morgan has gone through a similar transition becoming a smaller version of the American Saddlebred (open shoulder, arched neck, high head carriage, flat croup).

Not sure this is any help or what you are looking for. It is the what and why that I see. JMO. No one need agree.
The QH was actually designed out of some TB and farm horses in Virginia WAAAAY before QH's moved out west. I would not be surprised if there was some Morgan in those QH's because the Morgans and QH's developed pretty much around the same time. The QH's were developed as race horses first....then once the west was settled, the ranch horse aspect came in. But the QH was around before that.
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    09-07-2012, 05:46 PM
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I would prefer to buy the stallion if I were looking for a good riding horse.
I have had a lot of people ask me if my welsh C x TB mare is a morgan, there are similarities in looks and temperament. The english settlers brought welsh cobs over with them as they were small strong horses capable of plowing & clearing a small parcel of land, looking smart to pull the family trap to church and a good riding horse. Crossed with a TB you get something faster and more refined
Its a shame that the suffolk Punch lost popularity against the shires and clydesdales etc - they are more compact, not feathered and have a nice head - they are a good cross with a TB
A lot of breeds are losing out by a demand to have some particular feature - small pretty head, flashy action. Huge quarters etc and the rest of the conformation gets thrown out of the window.
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    09-07-2012, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Aestival Morgans    
I uploaded two photos one of my Black Stud that is 15.2 hands and one of a brown mare I have that is 15.1 hands. I know my requirements of what I am looking for when it comes to conformation, but I want to know more about the quarter horse breed. I have tried to talk to people locally, about conformation, but to no avail (I don't think they know quite what they are looking for). And I have done a ton of internet reading about quarter horse conformation. I want an honest and ADULT conversation about this. I know when breed to breed conversations arise some feelings can get in the way of honesty and reality. So critique away as if there were two quarters at a sale you were bidding on. Oh and he bites cows like a border collie. Sorry had to throw that in there.

Well, because these are Morgans, but I am supposed to look at this as if I was looking at QHs...which means I'm looking for type (no matter what the breed is), it would be the black stud hands down. As he shows the classic type of a Morgan. He is extremely typey and I like him ALOT. The brown mare shows "outside" influence of another style, a modern style...that is not classic to the breed. She's more ASB or Arab looking...longer in the body, more swan like neck, much flatter croup (all characteristic more towards ASB and Arabian). Relate this to QH's and what you have is comparing a shorter, stockier, short cannon boned, shorter backed a taller, reedier, longer bodied, plainer headed Appendix with heavy TB influence. (which in QH terms would relate to be more TB looking.)

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