The 'Coupling' and Lumbo-sacral area of the back - Page 2
   

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The 'Coupling' and Lumbo-sacral area of the back

This is a discussion on The 'Coupling' and Lumbo-sacral area of the back within the Horse Conformation Critique forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Ls weak loin
  • Equine spianl lumber coupling

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    08-29-2012, 01:37 PM
  #11
Green Broke
FWIW a long backed horse may produce a smoother ride.. and then we have that Texas Limo... but my complaint there is he does not seem to have an on board mini bar!!
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    08-29-2012, 02:26 PM
  #12
Weanling
I'm not too sure I agree with all your good examples... To an extent. They all do have decent ls joint placements, but a couple look like they have a slightly weak loin.

When I look for the strength of the back, I look at a couple things. First is the placement of the coupling, or the ls joint. Next I find the beginning of the back (I find many have problems here, often confusing themselves when the wither is large and set back) and the back ends at the ls joint. We can then easily see weak backs when the ls joint is poorly placed, simply by length of back.

But the way I was taught, you must also look at the quality of the loin, which is directly related to the ls joint placement, but there can be weakness here too.
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    08-29-2012, 02:56 PM
  #13
Super Moderator
Ok, "weak loins" is an even vaguer term for me. Please show some diagrams . I want to know clearly what you mean. And, question here, does it matter how "deep" the loin is? I mean, the distance from the top of the horse where his SI joint is (which is where pelvis turns into spine, so is where the back starts at the rear of the horse), and dropping down a nearly vertical line to where the bottom of horse's gut is. I have heard the term wasp waisted and seen such horses. Is this narrow distance an example of "weak loins"?
     
    08-29-2012, 03:18 PM
  #14
Super Moderator
I've seen more examples of horses that look concerning in the back area in the US than I ever saw in the UK - I wondered if it was something to do with heavy western saddles and being broke young and a bit rough maybe by a heavy person or is it just a genetic thing?
A horse with sacro-iliac trouble has that 'stretched look' - not a long back but as per the horse on the right in the first pair of pictures (I think I have that right) so it would make me want to establish if the horse was unsound or just in poor muscle tone/condition
     
    08-29-2012, 08:49 PM
  #15
Green Broke
Jaydee has hit on something.. and while I do think it is largely genetic (we do see a lot of horses like that here in the US) I also agree with the statement about the long backed horse on the right (the sorrel) in the example of a weak coupling, or long back. I did say I would not buy the horse on the left.. but I would buy the horse on the right. The horse on the right could be helped by conditioning.

I do think one difference between horses in the UK and in the US is that there are fewer people who own and breed them in the UK. Those who do have horses tend to ride under instruction and the horses may have a more sound foundation. I also believe that stables still take there horses out to run them and do not necessarily train on the track (especially Steeple Chase horses). An English Thoroughbred, well bred, is an animal of substance (or the ones I have see are).

Wasp Waisted horses are a whole 'nother topic.. and in that you need to be able to tell if it is conformation or conditioning. Many horses in racing form are wasp waisted.. but that is not their conformation but their conditioning.
     
    08-30-2012, 11:48 AM
  #16
Super Moderator
weak backed

I'm not sure if there are fewer horse owners in the UK by ratio of the population but as a very small country we are crammed together more and owning a property with enough land to even keep a horse is beyond the pockets of most owners so less amateurs breed horse. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who do breed bad - quantity above quality but as sales have dropped so have numbers. A lot of these types were/are ponies that cost little to produce and often end up straight for the meat market so never get into the breeding chain.
One of the biggest problems are the owners that get an outgrown pony or buy a cheap failed racing mare and think that by putting it too a nice stallion they will get a good result.
There is a lot of Irish Draft and welsh cob influence still in UK breeding and they do have a better genetic back conformation which might also explain why there are less faults seen
IMO all stallions and mares should have to be officially approved for breeding and licensed as such.
Back to the horse on the right - there is a term called 'jumpers bump' in the UK (might be universal) that does look like that horses shape. Its generally a result of jumping strain either from over exertion - which is why its often seen in (fox) hunters and TB's that race over fences and horses that are jumped too early and then too often. Its caused by a strain to the ligaments at attachment of the lumbar and sacral vertebrae and though painful at first it does harden into normal scar tissue but may reduce the horses ability to jump though not affect its general use as a riding horse - though in UK show classes where horses have to be stripped of tack & also judged on conformation they wouldn't be any use
This is a link to one web page that explains it better and has a large photo
http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/hunters-bump.pdf
     
    08-30-2012, 02:20 PM
  #17
Green Broke
I know about Hunter's Bump.. the horse on the right is a Quarterhorse and far too many have a prominent peak of croup for them to ALL have hunter's bump.

However, that blemish CAN add to the confusion when discussing a top line.

I do agree with the rest.. and ponies.. lots of ponies.. never get a chance.
     
    08-30-2012, 03:01 PM
  #18
Super Moderator
odd top line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elana    
I know about Hunter's Bump.. the horse on the right is a Quarterhorse and far too many have a prominent peak of croup for them to ALL have hunter's bump.

However, that blemish CAN add to the confusion when discussing a top line.

I do agree with the rest.. and ponies.. lots of ponies.. never get a chance.
Yes the ones I have seen over here have all been either quarter horses or part bred quarter horses, many of which I would think have never jumped anything that would 'stretch' them so chances of it being genetic are more likely
Is this a case - do you think - of horses being bred to produce a certain look so at lot of interbreeding going on? Some quarter horses do seem to have enormous back ends but look very low in the front. I can see this being an advantage in its early stages but has it gone into the extremes?
We looked at arabians over here a couple of years back and noticed they were mostly a lot finer than the UK ones but with much smaller 'typey' heads. One quite succcessful arabian trainer told us that they were bred solely for the heads with no thought to what came behind - basically a piece of pasture art - and now they need to go back to the start and put things right to get a good riding animal again. One stallion that was widely used for his perfect head etc was constantly throwing progeny with 'clubfoot' yet continued to be a top sire. We were surprised that horses with clubfoot could win in the show ring here at all as they wouldn't have a chance in the UK
     
    08-30-2012, 03:19 PM
  #19
Green Broke
This discussion is going OT.. so we pro'ly ought to take it over to the breeding and genetics area. That being said.. there seems to be a trend to extremes in American Breeding of animals.. be it dogs (look at my breed.. the German Shepherd), cattle (Guernsey cattle have become very find boned) to horses... It is accomplished by Line Breeding (as opposed to inbreeding) but then good animals are bred using line breeding as well.
     
    08-30-2012, 03:32 PM
  #20
Super Moderator
O/T

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elana    
This discussion is going OT.. so we pro'ly ought to take it over to the breeding and genetics area. That being said.. there seems to be a trend to extremes in American Breeding of animals.. be it dogs (look at my breed.. the German Shepherd), cattle (Guernsey cattle have become very find boned) to horses... It is accomplished by Line Breeding (as opposed to inbreeding) but then good animals are bred using line breeding as well.
Its certainly a very interesting topic and well worth discussing especially for anyone thinking about breeding.
Thanks for all the research you put into it.
Yes totally right about dogs too
     

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