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Critique my mare

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  • Is abum high pony still growing
  • Conformation welsh d

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    12-11-2011, 06:58 AM
  #11
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surayya    
For example please...
What jumped out at me was the upright shoulder. Both horses have shoulders that look a little upright.

But really the problem IMO is the stallion. He doesn't have a lot going for him conformationally. Butt-high is not a good thing. His shoulder is upright, and I just don't like his hindquarter in general. The angles in it just seem wrong.
     
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    12-11-2011, 07:15 AM
  #12
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clava    
The stallion is nothing special, very short coupled and rather bum high, I'd want something a bit bigger and less like a pony.

More like this Thomas of givendale - Stud Card. Stallions Online. Stallions at stud.
Lol The point is to bred her to a Smaller stallion for a smaller mature height in the foal- I'm short & 15.1hh is as tall as Id like to go- 15hh would be better lol (I look way over horsed on her as it is) :)

I Want short coupled as it = strong esp as they age ;)

I'm wanting the foal to look much like the stallion you posted less the hair of course ;) So I need a heavy stallion & that means I'm limited to 2 stallions here- the other stallion has less depth in his body.
This is what I'm after (I know I'm not likely to get so much bone tho):
http://www.smartcobs.com/hp_scanDS_119514285624.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_s42ZLFWeOe.../kayandcap.jpg
http://www.countryfarmstud.co.uk/ima...as%20RIHS1.jpg
http://www.farmersguardian.com/Pictu...elle_Heath.jpg
http://www.theirishhorse.co.uk/corne1.jpg
http://www.theirishhorse.co.uk/main.h4.jpg
http://smartcobs.webs.com/Ireland%20...2009%20016.jpg
http://www.magnusnicholson.co.uk/gfx...immy_large.jpg
http://www.magnusnicholson.co.uk/gal...ge/BenMhor.jpg
     
    12-11-2011, 08:23 AM
  #13
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue eyed pony    
What jumped out at me was the upright shoulder. Both horses have shoulders that look a little upright.

But really the problem IMO is the stallion. He doesn't have a lot going for him conformationally. Butt-high is not a good thing. His shoulder is upright, and I just don't like his hindquarter in general. The angles in it just seem wrong.
The bum is a typical Gypsy cob bum - same as being bum high (at least all the ones over here are) & why I'm not really a fan of the bred. However they don't seem to leave such down hill offspring when crossed
This is the only unsaddled youngster from him I could find as his oldest offspring are only 3yrs old - this mare is 2or3yrs
http://www.westfieldstud.co.nz/Ricky...20Partbred.JPG

As for upright shoulders, they arent the be all & end all, it's the whole sholder & forelimb tie in that determinds soundness- her's are only slightly straight, but with a very good length from point of shoulder to point of elbow on top of good length of shoulder itself which is why it has no effect on her movement at all, as long as you arent looking for mind blowing extensions lol- her movement is the most comfy I've ever ridden (nothing smoother & more comfy than cantering her bareback, everyone who rides her doesnt want to get off- been told to change her name to cloud 9 lol), she also has the SJers snap & collects like a Spanish horse, so being slightly upright isnt a problem, in fact it's made her a better ride, as any one can get on & enjoy without being bounced around lol.
The only down side to her shoulder is she hasnt got a massive WB stride- tho she out walks 17hh WBs at free walk (or any time) on a long rein- she has a 40cm over track & scores 9s or 10s in her tests.
She's cleaned up this season winning or placing in every flat class she's entered, dressage included ;p- that photo was taken as a 4yr old she has now just gone 6 so has even more power but I don't have any side on shots :)
     
    12-11-2011, 08:30 AM
  #14
Trained
Don't like the progeny either. JMO.

No, it's not typical gypsy. Might be where you are but NZ (and here in Oz for that matter) there aren't a lot of gypsy horses and so quality often leaves a lot to be desired because the attitude is "OMG rare horsey" and few people actually pay attention to the conformation of the animal. Even here - there are maybe 5 gypsy horses in the whole state - the standard of quality is FAR higher than the individual you are considering. Higher still in the Eastern states of Australia and you can get chilled semen from several of them, making them possible options - although I wouldn't AI a maiden mare because the conception rate is kind of low with AI.

Yes the whole leg has to be taken into account BUT an upright shoulder is still a fault that you don't want to enhance or accentuate and like begets like so that "only slightly" upright shoulder might turn into "holy upright shoulder Batman!!" in the progeny, especially if you breed a horse with the fault to another horse with the same fault. You MIGHT get lucky but I don't like the chances.

I will reiterate I do not like the stallion, and I do not like the progeny. If the stallion were mine he would be a gelding. Find yourself a different stallion and if there are no others that are even close to acceptable local to you then consider artificial insemination.

That is my opinion and what I would do. I'm not saying don't breed your mare - she doesn't have anything SO wrong that it can't be corrected by the right stallion - but I am saying, not to this stallion. He is all wrong for her.
     
    12-11-2011, 10:06 AM
  #15
Super Moderator
Several of the horses in the links you posted are seriously over weight.

Short coupled is not a strong back when combined with it being bum high as well. I understand you wanting something smaller, I'm short too and last year I was in exactly the same position as you and I was looking at breeding my beautiful TB mare with the same type of stallion for a while but along with others (here is a very long thread about the discussion Husbands for Belle)

I can't really help with what is available in your country, but I think you need to look for more bone and a better overall conformation.
     
    12-11-2011, 10:12 AM
  #16
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue eyed pony    
Don't like the progeny either. JMO.

No, it's not typical gypsy. Might be where you are but NZ (and here in Oz for that matter) there aren't a lot of gypsy horses and so quality often leaves a lot to be desired because the attitude is "OMG rare horsey" and few people actually pay attention to the conformation of the animal. Even here - there are maybe 5 gypsy horses in the whole state - the standard of quality is FAR higher than the individual you are considering. Higher still in the Eastern states of Australia and you can get chilled semen from several of them, making them possible options - although I wouldn't AI a maiden mare because the conception rate is kind of low with AI.

Yes the whole leg has to be taken into account BUT an upright shoulder is still a fault that you don't want to enhance or accentuate and like begets like so that "only slightly" upright shoulder might turn into "holy upright shoulder Batman!!" in the progeny, especially if you breed a horse with the fault to another horse with the same fault. You MIGHT get lucky but I don't like the chances.
I understand what you are saying about the lack of quality in the imports (they tend to go for the lower end of the market as it's so darn expensive to import anything esp here with all the extra taxes we have to payon top). However ALL the Gypsy stallions I've seen on line including the top ranked Irish stallions are all bum high as at the end of the day they are built 1st to pull the wagons 2nd to ride.
I want to bred her to a small RID or UK Show Cob (thought about Sect D welsh, but find them quite stiff in their movement), but that's just not going to happen.
She is a maiden so I'm not going down the AI route 1st time around with her, I want natural cover 1st time & will make sure all goes well blah blah blah before commiting a small fourtune 'just' to get her inseminated, let alone hoping it takes etc.

I'll ask for updated pics as those pics are from 2006 when he was 3 or 4 I think & have another look at him - it will come down to what will most likely throw me the type (HW Cob or hunter) I'm after, Not what will give me a nice modern sports horse or WB.

As far as shoulder conformation goes each to their own - her grand dam had the same as her & went till 39yrs old despite being a top level SJ for 13yrs & hunting for 21yrs, with never a lame day nor looking her age (in fact she only died last yr & was still happy as a sand lark & in med work with the grandkids of her owners on board), her Dam looks much the same & also at 12-13yrs has never been lame nor missed a beat, despite 8yrs eventing & SJ over summer & hunting over winter ;) My mare comes from a long line of horses built to work hard & stand up to that work BUT she is the last decent boned horse of this line (the station sold all it's breeding stock 6yrs ago when I got her) & IMO Nz horses are getting to fine in build to stand up to decent/ hard work which is why so many are breaking down or having to have all manner of body work done to keep them going now.

Thanks for your opinion & honesty though- it's food for thought :)
     
    12-11-2011, 10:14 AM
  #17
Super Moderator
Welsh D's stiff in their movement??? What do you mean?, I really am not keen on them , but they have wonderful fluid movement.
     
    12-11-2011, 10:25 AM
  #18
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clava    
Several of the horses in the links you posted are seriously over weight.

Short coupled is not a strong back when combined with it being bum high as well. I understand you wanting something smaller, I'm short too and last year I was in exactly the same position as you and I was looking at breeding my beautiful TB mare with the same type of stallion for a while but along with others (here is a very long thread about the discussion Husbands for Belle)

I can't really help with what is available in your country, but I think you need to look for more bone and a better overall conformation.
Thanks will have a squizz at the thread later its 4:30am here & I'm so tired.
That stallion is young & has the largest amount of Bone per body weight in Nz - the others are much much taller with less bone :(

Short back, short broad loin & bum high is the strongest equine conformation you can get when coupled with a heavy forehand- that's why so many drafts are built that way, so they can pull MASSIVE loads easily, it's just not comfy for us to ride (nor as easy to fit a saddle to or as pretty imo) lol :)
     
    12-11-2011, 10:30 AM
  #19
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clava    
Welsh D's stiff in their movement??? What do you mean?, I really am not keen on them , but they have wonderful fluid movement.
I've ridden 3 over here - 1 stallion & 2 mares wasnt impressed with them, they felt rather stiff in the back & movement through the shoulders felt tight/stiff hard to explain- looked it too when ridden by owners & have seen many welsh d's that move the legs but not their backs even in the uk- that's most likely what I was feeling, sorry I can't explain better than that. I'm off to bed before my eyes fall out ;)
     
    12-11-2011, 10:43 AM
  #20
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surayya    
Thanks will have a squizz at the thread later its 4:30am here & I'm so tired.
That stallion is young & has the largest amount of Bone per body weight in Nz - the others are much much taller with less bone :(

Short back, short broad loin & bum high is the strongest equine conformation you can get when coupled with a heavy forehand- that's why so many drafts are built that way, so they can pull MASSIVE loads easily, it's just not comfy for us to ride (nor as easy to fit a saddle to or as pretty imo) lol :)
...but you want a riding horse don't you, not a draft? A show heavyweight cob?

Welsh D's have an extravagant movement with a high leg action but is shouldn't be stiff (maybe they had saddle fit problems the ones you tried)

Fitting a saddle to a bum high short coupled horse is indeed a nightmare and really isn't the conformation you want in any riding horse. Is that stallion still a baby and growing? Is that why it is mum high? If so it being that shape may not be an issue as it grows.
     

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