For Saddlebred owners out there :) - Page 3
   

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For Saddlebred owners out there :)

This is a discussion on For Saddlebred owners out there :) within the Horse Conformation Critique forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Do you have to train a saddlebred harder to get into condition
  • Saddlebreds, oddcolors

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    05-29-2013, 12:33 PM
  #21
Trained
I agree that he should be gelded because of his conformation faults which aren't fixable. You can't take a sloping croup and make it flat, raise his tail set or shorten his back. Though his back is my last worry because he's also 3 and a bit butt high still, so I'd reserve judgement on that. He's ewe necked but that can be compensated for with training and a head set, but won't change the way it's set on.

Now that I said all the bad stuff, he's adorable, love his color and he moves just like my saddlebred mare. She has the softest, easiest to sit trot EVER and a rocking chair canter and the best temperament too. She is one of 2 horses on this place that will never be sold and the one that I tell people when they ask about buying her, "You can buy her when you can pry her lead rope out of my cold, dead fingers. Then you can try to get my husband to part with her.".

So, while he's not perfect, he may have the perfect ride.
     
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    05-29-2013, 12:53 PM
  #22
Weanling
Dream Catcher Arabians -

"I agree that he should be gelded because of his conformation faults which aren't fixable. You can't take a sloping croup and make it flat, raise his tail set or shorten his back. Though his back is my last worry because he's also 3 and a bit butt high still, so I'd reserve judgement on that. He's ewe necked but that can be compensated for with training and a head set, but won't change the way it's set on. "

<======= That is exactly what I was thinking that he's butt high! It makes his back look funny... he's not even 3 for Krist's sake and he seriously needs to gain some muscle and develop and grow.. Yes I agree about the eweneck. Definitely should not ride this guy saddleseat - actually many saddleseat trained ASBs look ewe-necked to me because of the way their training forces them to carry their neck.. Just think about the mechanics of the way they ride the saddle-seat horses.. I think teaching him how to properly carry himself would help address this neck issue as well as strengthen his back where it needs to be strengthened.

"Now that I said all the bad stuff, he's adorable, love his color and he moves just like my saddlebred mare. She has the softest, easiest to sit trot EVER and a rocking chair canter and the best temperament too. She is one of 2 horses on this place that will never be sold and the one that I tell people when they ask about buying her, "You can buy her when you can pry her lead rope out of my cold, dead fingers. Then you can try to get my husband to part with her.".

<==== Yes I picked him for his movement - the color is icing on the cake - but I think he would make a great dressage and overall riding horse - he's got nice big bones in his legs, big solid fee (even though they need TLC by my farrier - his feet had nice long frogs and thick walls). Yes his croup is round and tail-set low, I think he would look great doing Western Pleasure too.. When his butt fills in I think it would look good, actually with the round croup - I think he will have good chance to be able to reach underneath himself better and collect himself better.. VERY true about the softest trot.. my other saddlebred gelding is just the smoothest ride, he is not taught to gait, so only 3 gaited but keeps up very well with all the gaited horses on the trail and I stay very comfortable myself.

"So, while he's not perfect, he may have the perfect ride."

<=== Amen - please check his trot in that video again.. :) He floats... :)
I may geld him this fall when it cools down or I may geld him in 2 years when he's done growing - keeping him intact will help with muscling him up.. Since they did not geld him when his testes dropped, might as well keep him intact until he's done growing or until he asks for it - whichever comes first.. :)
     
    05-29-2013, 01:21 PM
  #23
Green Broke
As long as you are happy with him, that is all that matters! :) I was just meaning to keep an eye on the back as he gets older, not saying it is godawful, hehe. Where as it does look soft, as I said, it may improve with conditioning and tons of topline work.
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    05-29-2013, 01:38 PM
  #24
Weanling
Thanks Honeysuga :)
I will post some new confo pictures here next weekend after we get him and get him cleaned up..

- I have nursed my now 4 yo paint filly to health and beauty back from when she was almost 2 - she was terribly underweight and neglected and she looks awesome now and is great riding / cow / game / pleasure mount.. I get a lot of satisfaction in getting them better and healthier and getting the young-ins trained and riding and blossoming.. I may or may not keep him.. It seems I am the kind of person that likes to put some pounds, training and LOVE into them and I know that eventually will start itching for a new project few years down the road - of course at that time I am attached and it's very hard to let go ..
     
    05-29-2013, 03:50 PM
  #25
Started
Hi, that horse does not have lordosis. Not even mild.

In regards to his back: He is under weight, no muscle tone, high behind and has pronounced withers. He has a weak back, certainly, but he does not have lordosis. His dam does not have lordosis either. Sway back from over work, poor muscling, and from being a longtime broodmare is not the same as genetic lordosis that you can find in Saddlebreds. You will see a little sway on the longer backed mares after years of carrying foals. The mares are stuck out in a field to work themselves. They are often fat and lazy, do not work any harder than they have to, probably couldn't accumulate a mile cantering in a full year. Carrying babies is hard on the body, and if you have a longer back, it really pulls on you. Age plays a factor too.

Genetic lordosis has a very specific look, from mild to severe. When you know what you are looking for, you can certainly tell. You can tell a horse that has genetic lordosis before you ever lay a hand on them.

THIS is a horse with mild lordosis.
http://imgc.classistatic.com/cps/poc...2307gj_27.jpeg

When he is in better shape, after good groceries and good work and done growing, THEN look at his back. There is not a big problem there.

And he is definitely not worth keeping a stud. There are so many better options, and I believe you both would be happier if he were gelded. Kind of a non-issue right now since you don't have him yet, but still.

I hope you love him and do well with whatever you choose to do with him. I fully agree with you working him as something that will require a lower head carriage. He is not built to be able to set up and carry himself as a Saddleseat horse.


(As for the saddleseat Saddlebreds being forced to carry themselves with a high head and neck, why no, thank you, we do not "force" them. We cannot force them to do that if we want to keep a horse competitive for very long. We breed for the high, chess piece head carriage. If one is forced to do so, you destroy their air, cause back problems, cause temperament problems, lose power from the hind end which essentially makes you lose motion in the front causing you to try to make up for it elsewhere... all sorts of problems occur from forcing a horse to do something he was not built to do. Those that are "faked", which you see sometimes are not successful and don't last long. It is easier to force a neck up than to try to force motion though, I will give you that. We are pretty successful with breeeding for horses who carry their heads high though. When we get straight necked horses, or horses that are born with lower than ideal head carriage, we use them elsewhere. Same with the ones who are not built for or capable of high motion. THAT is something you cannot fake. You find a lot of hideous quality horses in the spotted horses, palominos, grays and other odd colors from those who breed for color. That is part of the reason why there are not very many top colored horses. There are a few out there, and growing, but still, there are not many. )
     
    05-29-2013, 04:02 PM
  #26
Started
LadyDreamer. I didn't mean to imply, nor did I say, that the OP's horse had Lordosis. I did say he had a soft back. Certainly it would be worth keeping an eye on as he matures. Plus if the OP didn't know, she should have looked into Lordosis. There is tons of info about it on the net.

I did notice that Habaneros Cassanova, shown in the movie as an adult, is also butt-high. As you say, and has happened in many breeds, when the colours became popular, it was harder and harder, to find a good one.

Lizzie
     
    05-29-2013, 04:28 PM
  #27
Started
Yep, I just thought I would clear up that information. I have dealt with a lot of horses with lordosis. Genetic lordosis is not something that develops over time, whereas there are some sway back cases that are(age related mostly). If they have it, it can get worse, especially as the horse grows, but you KNOW a horse has it before they are weaned. Genetic lordosis is kind of funny. A horse can have the specific gene marker to be lordotic, and not show it, and never have a foal they produce show it. On the same note, a horse that shows it can throw all straight backed foals. Researchers have just recently found the genetic marker for it, and are currently researching causes. I personally believe nutritional and environmental factors play a big role. I have had them out to the farm, and have spoken to them numerous times. They really love their work. Since it is so funny on when it pops up, and saddlebred people too are really funny when it pops up, it is really difficult to study. Saddlebred people don't breed for it, and don't really want to be associated with the production of it, so they are well hidden, not talked about, and not promoted until they are showing.

This colt honestly looks like he will be fine. Weak back for sure, but I wouldn't even consider it "soft"(granted, terminology is highly debated even in the saddlebred world. One man's "soft" is another man's "low".) He is likely not going to be put through any rigorous training that would severely damage his back at this point in its weakened, under-muscled state, at least until he is in a better condition. At the worst, he might be a little difficult to fit a saddle to.
     
    05-29-2013, 05:14 PM
  #28
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyDreamer    
Yep, I just thought I would clear up that information. I have dealt with a lot of horses with lordosis. Genetic lordosis is not something that develops over time, whereas there are some sway back cases that are(age related mostly). If they have it, it can get worse, especially as the horse grows, but you KNOW a horse has it before they are weaned. Genetic lordosis is kind of funny. A horse can have the specific gene marker to be lordotic, and not show it, and never have a foal they produce show it. On the same note, a horse that shows it can throw all straight backed foals. Researchers have just recently found the genetic marker for it, and are currently researching causes. I personally believe nutritional and environmental factors play a big role. I have had them out to the farm, and have spoken to them numerous times. They really love their work. Since it is so funny on when it pops up, and saddlebred people too are really funny when it pops up, it is really difficult to study. Saddlebred people don't breed for it, and don't really want to be associated with the production of it, so they are well hidden, not talked about, and not promoted until they are showing.

This colt honestly looks like he will be fine. Weak back for sure, but I wouldn't even consider it "soft"(granted, terminology is highly debated even in the saddlebred world. One man's "soft" is another man's "low".) He is likely not going to be put through any rigorous training that would severely damage his back at this point in its weakened, under-muscled state, at least until he is in a better condition. At the worst, he might be a little difficult to fit a saddle to.
Not sure I agree with this (red marked)

A long time ago on one of these forums, a lady was showing her mare with extreme lordosis. She showed pics from the time the foal was born and through her successful halter show career. No sign of it. The mare had excellent care and no hard work. She was not an aged mare, but had major lordosis. So it can come on later and not be seen when young. This was also a Saddlebred. I cannot remember her breeding.

In Gypsy Horses, I have only seen it once. Even looking at huge herds of Gypsies in the UK, I have never seen it. However, in this one horse - again a mare, as an adult it became incredibly pronounced. She was imported to the US as a nicely conformed youngster. She had plenty of very close relatives here. I was shocked when I saw her. She had never been worked hard and received proper care. As far as I know she has never been bred, which is probably a good thing.

I know Lordosis has been noted in many breeds, but I have only really been interested in it, in Gypsies and Saddlebreds, since they are my favourite breeds.

I do think that such horses should not be bred. I do think that in many cases, it is covered up, just as many other problems in animals. Certainly aged mares, having produced many offspring, will have weak backs, but true Lordosis is something quite different.

Lizzie
     
    06-03-2013, 08:01 AM
  #29
Weanling
Hello everyone - just an update - the colt is not home yet. He will be gelded sometime this week, we will be picking him up before the end of June :)
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    06-03-2013, 10:37 AM
  #30
Foal
He is a lovely mover . . . I REALLY like the way he moves! He does seem butt-high, but so did my mare, and she grew out of it. He's still young and changing. I'd love to see more videos and pictures when he arrives :)
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