Would this young fellow be good as a future dressage prospect? - Page 3
 
 

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Would this young fellow be good as a future dressage prospect?

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  • Young dressage prospect critique?

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    02-24-2014, 05:24 PM
  #21
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryst    
Upright pasterns means there is less shock absorption of movement, so instead of nice flexion as a horse moves they hit the ground much harder. It can make them more prone to arthritis and general unsoundness as there is much harder pounding going up the leg, instead of being dissipated through the joint flexing.
Shock absorbing should not happen through the joints. It should happen down in the hoof. If the hooves cannot function properly, if the horse cannot make heel first impacts, it will indeed negatively affect joints above, regardless of upright conformation.
     
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    02-25-2014, 09:03 AM
  #22
Green Broke
Actually, Loosie, the hooves are part of the equation not the entire equation. A horse with an upright shoulder and short humerus will be a rough ride because the entire skeleton is what takes up the impact of a foot fall along WITH the hoof.

A poorly trimmed hoof can certainly wreak havoc as we well know! However, if the hoof is trimmed correctly and the bone column above the hoof is unforgiving, then joints take up the abuse.

In that stallion, the OP indicated he had surgery for/on his front pasterns. It may have been to relax contracted tendons that can have their basis in genetics and which can be helped with a good therapeutic farrier (note I did not say "corrective trimming" because I do not believe in corrective trimming as that can louse up the column of bones above the hoof!).

The hind leg on the stallion (since you asked) has too high a hock and the stifle is placed too far back making the distance from Point of buttock to stifle too short. I have drawn (rather poorly because I do not have a stylus and drawing with a mouse is.. rough.. ) a better hind leg that allows more angle, places the peak of croup further forward and the hock lower and gives the hind cannon more bone. That hind leg is weak. It does not mean the horse will be lame. It means the horse lacks power. In addition, the hind pasterns are pretty upright. As he stands he is long in the coupling and steep crouped and over straight through the stifle with high hocks and a light cannon.

Going to the front.. this horse has a steepish shoulder and a low point of shoulder (red). What would be better (again.. not exactly what I wanted to draw because of the mouse thing) is the yellow line. This would give the horse a free-er shoulder. The front leg is placed too far under and the horse is tied in at the knee. The angle of those front pasterns is unacceptable. In part due to the feet.. although the heels are not long. The fetlock joints appear enlarged and abnormal.. much like you see in contracted tendons. Add to that this horse is tied in at the knee much like his son.
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    02-25-2014, 10:33 AM
  #23
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
Shock absorbing should not happen through the joints. It should happen down in the hoof. If the hooves cannot function properly, if the horse cannot make heel first impacts, it will indeed negatively affect joints above, regardless of upright conformation.

Everything within the horse has to work as a unit, not independently. So absolutely hooves are the starting place, but energy moves up the body when a hoof hits the ground. Hoof, pastern, canon, knee, forearm, shoulder.... If any one of those is out of whack... The concussion of movement can negatively impact the weak one. Usually the issues are seen as tears in the joints, tendons or ligaments, or later on as arthritis. If the hoof did all of the work to absorb concussion then we wouldn't see injuries higher up the leg.

The straighter the joint the less range of motion to take up impact and thus the more pounding the movement is. This is why a straighter shoulder feels more jarring than a nice shoulder layback when all other things are equal. In something like a pastern you want it in moderation... While a longer sloping pastern will make for a smoother ride, if it is too long or too sloped it too can be prone to injury, as unlike a shoulder it doesn't have muscle and the rest of the skeletal system to stabilize it and limit it from hyper-extension, which can be just as much of a problem as lack of flexion.
     
    02-25-2014, 11:17 AM
  #24
Green Broke
Actually, Tryst, the shoulder in the horse (dog and cat and most mammals except humans) is NOT stabilized by the rest of the skeletal system. The shoulder floats free in a sling of muscles and tendons and ligaments and is not attached to the skeleton directly. Humans have a shoulder attachment to the skeletal system via the collar bone which is absent in most mammals. Without a collar bone, our shoulders would also float in muscles, tendons and ligaments.

The collar bone is often 'sacrificed' when a person falls from a horse so I am not sure all this attachment is so good!!
     
    02-25-2014, 01:24 PM
  #25
Yearling
I am aware of that and didn't word it very well... I didn't say it was connected, only that it was supported. I meant through ligaments, tendon and muscle. I was just trying to say that an overly sloped, weak pastern will be prone to hyper extend, but an angulation shoulder won't be. Anyways, sorry if that wasn't clear.
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    02-25-2014, 01:35 PM
  #26
Trained
Anyways, back to the original question. It is nearly impossible to tell from foal pictures how a horse will turn out. When looking at foals for dressage it is VERY indicative of future success to look at the bloodlines. As long as the care is good, the mare and foal have not been over or under fed, all nutrients are supplied and the foal does not injure itself, the bloodlines will usually indicate temperament, talent etc.

So what is the breeding of the foal back 3 gens if possible? What level are you looking to go to?
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    02-25-2014, 04:04 PM
  #27
Super Moderator
Don't feel bad about him jumping!
I have had several foals mostly TBs, that would pop over jumps just because they loved to do so. Never did them any harm.

In Europe thy loose jump the foals over a few fences to see if they have potential, then as yearlings. These horses go on to make top show jumpers.

I go along with the rest, like the mare but not so keen on the stallion. Even as foals you can see how we'll they move.
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    02-26-2014, 08:49 PM
  #28
Weanling
Well, this escalated into something that was very interesting and informative to read. Thanks everyone! (: I'll probably read the discussions here at least three more times before I think I've understood, haha.

The stallion was indeed very choppy to ride, on the few occasions that I did. He had trouble moving freely even in the pasture, trot especially. I'm guessing because his pasterns couldn't absorb the impact well(?), his front legs were often swollen and needed tending. For that, I am happy he is in the skies now, free from it all..though he was a lovely horse, the sweetest stallion. He followed me around everywhere and just made me laugh. I guess I was too naiive, didn't think that something other than his pasters were a problem before.. but it's good to know, now I can be more watchful of these traits in other horses.



Elana, I have thought about breeding the mare to some upper-class stallion. Just maybe not at the moment, I don't think I'm financially prepared for that. But, I'm very fond of the idea, haha - I have even searched for hours, trying to find a possible stud from some European country so I could ship frozen semen to Estonia.. but so far, few results that I actually like. Yet I'll keep thinking and looking ;)

To anebel, the mare Starry isn't that special when it comes to bloodlines. The only 'shiny' part of her pedigree is the fact that she is half andalusian - but neither her sire or siresire have any major accomplishments. And don't get me started on her dam - she was a 'something' cross aswell. No competitions.
Then there comes the latvian stallion I listed here, his sire was Gvidons, siresire Guido(KWPN), siresiresire Voltaire (yes the one and only). So basically, the lineage was much better on him than the mare, haha.
     
    02-27-2014, 01:47 AM
  #29
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyro    
Well, this escalated into something that was very interesting and informative to read. Thanks everyone! (: I'll probably read the discussions here at least three more times before I think I've understood, haha.

The stallion was indeed very choppy to ride, on the few occasions that I did. He had trouble moving freely even in the pasture, trot especially. I'm guessing because his pasterns couldn't absorb the impact well(?), his front legs were often swollen and needed tending. For that, I am happy he is in the skies now, free from it all..though he was a lovely horse, the sweetest stallion. He followed me around everywhere and just made me laugh. I guess I was too naiive, didn't think that something other than his pasters were a problem before.. but it's good to know, now I can be more watchful of these traits in other horses.



Elana, I have thought about breeding the mare to some upper-class stallion. Just maybe not at the moment, I don't think I'm financially prepared for that. But, I'm very fond of the idea, haha - I have even searched for hours, trying to find a possible stud from some European country so I could ship frozen semen to Estonia.. but so far, few results that I actually like. Yet I'll keep thinking and looking ;)

To anebel, the mare Starry isn't that special when it comes to bloodlines. The only 'shiny' part of her pedigree is the fact that she is half andalusian - but neither her sire or siresire have any major accomplishments. And don't get me started on her dam - she was a 'something' cross aswell. No competitions.
Then there comes the latvian stallion I listed here, his sire was Gvidons, siresire Guido(KWPN), siresiresire Voltaire (yes the one and only). So basically, the lineage was much better on him than the mare, haha.
Do you know the lineage on the Andalusian side?
And that damline on the sire?

Guido is a jumper line, but I like a little jumping blood if the damline is a good type. I would like if the mare was lighter - but might be just that she is fat.
Andalusian lines again depend on the bloodline as far as suitability for modern competition - and especially if the mare has been crossed out with lots of draft blood this can diminish the possibility for a good dressage horse.

To complement a dutch jumping line I would want to see a nice rideable mare with 3 pure gaits and a good type that is not heavy, and also a horse who is not spooky or flighty. Then, it still depends on what traits the foal inherits from each parent. But I would not fault the stud based on the sire line, but I don't know the dam line.

An interesting cross - but because of the different type of each horse, I would be wary of creating a "frankenhorse", but also the possibility to create a nice horse.
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    03-03-2014, 06:12 PM
  #30
Foal
I noticed this as well. but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilruffian    
He seems very over at the knee in all of the photos but the one of him at 4 months. May be a concern but it may also mean that he is straightening out.
He looks like he should develope for the most part into a solid, handsome fellow, though.

I like the pic of him jumping.. good sign ! He looks nice jumping. Dressage you say? I think he's told you what he wants.
     

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