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*Pictures* barefoot trim critique/opinions

9K views 47 replies 21 participants last post by  bntnail 
#1 ·
This mare has teeny tiny Quarter Horse feet that have always been tricky for farriers to trim and keep sound, however she was not lame a day in her life until age 22 when our old farrier worsened her heels that like to contract and caused one side of her heel to grow higher. Since then she has been on and off limping and had abscessed numerous times throwout that year. Our newer farrier seems to have salved that problem and corrected the damage from what I can see, her heels have returned to the same height. She has not had an abscess in a years time now, she is 24 now (two years since the start of her troubles). However she is still stiff and sore, I had been thinking arthritis and cold weather but she is on four joint supplements and after further looking into it this seems foot related -again,yet,still- (I know that she IS stiff/older but the tender limping seems foot related, I should say)

These photos are taken after 15 weeks since her last farrier visit so keep that in mind....
Comments, opinions, critique on the trim? I am noticing a huge bulge over her soul and wondering what this is, why its there and assuming this would cause discomfort.






 
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#2 ·
Oh wow. The bulge is the bottom of P3... I would be worried, very very worried.

From Pete Ramey's web site:


Telltale "hump" or "footprint" of P3 on the bottom of the foot. The material behind the hump is generally sole. The material in front of the hump; lamellar wedge. If you see this on your horse: I'll put this gently- Panic. It's time for sweeping dietary changes and improved hoof care.
You need to have your mare trimmed frequently and regularly. We have soft ground here, so our horses' feet aren't worn down naturally. I trim my horses every 3-5 weeks. Even on rough rocky or sandy ground, you should have your horses' trimmed at least every 6-8 weeks, to keep their feet properly balanced.

For the best hoof growth, you must start with a good diet. Very low starch, no added sugars, no added "fillers" like corn, wheat, grain sweepings, etc. I feed free choice grass hay, alfalfa pellets, flax, and a vit/min supplement. That's it. No feed or grains. My vit/min supplement has added biotin (10 mg), iodine, zinc, copper, and amino acids, all for optimum hoof health. I get it custom blended from Uckele Equine Nutrition. horsetech.com has a good one too, called High Point. They will increase or decrease any of the ingredients for you to customize the product (their prices include shipping).

A good article on the importance of diet.
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If your farrier doesn't see anything wrong with the bottoms of your horse's feet or trimming your horse every 16 weeks, then I would find a new farrier, quickly.
 
#6 ·
Oh wow. The bulge is the bottom of P3... I would be worried, very very worried.
agreed! hopefully that ridge is just retained soul.. but i would be in a panic about possible rotation, esp since the horse is lame.


to the OP, why did you wait 16 weeks between trimmings? if my farrier ever suggested such a thing (esp with a known problem horse), i would be looking for a new farrier asap!
 
#5 ·
Right, this is what I have been seeing. She is typically trimmed every six weeks, this is the first time she has gone longer. She doesn't grow fast and is tender now for a couple weeks after a trim which means I have two weeks to ride her between trims. The farrier is coming out Monday and I will be discussing what I see with her.

What needs to be done differently to prevent that? Was my biggest question, why NOW would she grow like that?

She is fed very well, she is on free choice first cutting grass hay. Eats Purina Equine Senior and soaked alfalfa cubes. Supplements include a biotin hoof supplement, corta flex, yucca, boss, apple cider vinegar and flax. She has access to a mineral block.
This is her feed schedule, nothing bad, no fillers and no cheap grain. She was typically (before this "term") trimmed every 6 weeks. So what else can be done? THIS is where I am puzzled.
 
#7 ·
Phantom, read above post.

We waited with her because she wasn't growing first of all, secondly because she was so tender for so long after trims and several other reasons.

The farrier is scheduled out for her Monday.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me A. what this is besides a bulge, B. what besides more frequent trimming and diet can be done (Which brings me to state as said in the above post, she is typically trimmed every 6 weeks and she is not poorly fed)
What can be done? How do you get rid of this bulge? Explain why she would have rotated and what possible rotated?

Just telling me you'd all panic isn't helping me understand, I cannot find anything online thats helpful - hence the inquiry on the public forum regarding my much loved life long friend in her older years here....... thanks
 
#8 ·
Can someone PLEASE explain to me A. what this is besides a bulge, B. what besides more frequent trimming and diet can be done (Which brings me to state as said in the above post, she is typically trimmed every 6 weeks and she is not poorly fed)
What can be done? How do you get rid of this bulge? Explain why she would have rotated and what possible rotated?
the issue is what caused/is causing the bulge. inside the foot is the coffin bone (aka p3), which is a wedge-shaped bone that is supposed to be parallel to the bottom (sole) of the foot and the front (toe) of the hoof.





if the coffin bone rotates (which can happen for various reasons), the "point" of the bone tilts downwards, which can result in that bulge you are seeing in your horse. coffin bone rotation is commonly called "founder."





and the most important things you can change ARE diet and trimmings. a super-rich diet can actually cause laminitis, which can lead to founder. but this is not something to be discussing with strangers on an internet forum--it needs to be discussed with your vet and a good farrier.

and, fwiw, a horse being trimmed properly should NOT be sore for weeks afterwards.
 
#9 ·
Thank-you, this is what I was wondering. I have a foundered horse here and the two act nothing alike (granted the foundered horse has been good to go for a year)
This mare has no heat what so ever in her feet and does not stand around trying to pull weight off from her front end. She does however mis-step when she turns either way which is why I was addressing arthritis first.

I could try adjusting her feed but as said, she isn't getting anything "sweet feed", corn, oats, sugar etc.. to begin with so I am not sure aside from strait hay where to switch her to.

Could the way a horse is being trimmed have anything to do with this?

She did not used to be tender after her trims however two years ago when this all started with one heel being jammed up higher than the other she has been touch and go since.
 
#10 ·
her mis-stepping when turning could be arthritis or it could be that whatever is going on in her foot/feet is even more sensitive with sideways pressure. or could be some of both. or neither.

and the proper diet for any horse beyond the basics is a hard thing to guess at online. not knowing your horse at all, the best advice i can give is to talk with your vet about your concerns.

if she's been off and on lame for 2 years, something needs to be addressed. what does your farrier say about her being so sore after the trims?
 
#11 ·
The veterinarians around here are of no use, I've long since stopped using them. Two years ago when this started one vet said shes old put her to sleep and the other didn't see anything wrong and stated how since he himself is an older gentlemen he limps sometimes too :-/
I will discuss this further with the farrier when she arrives Monday and see if she can accomplish anything.
 
#12 ·
i'm glad that you're taking an active interest in your horse's wellbeing. that being said - is the farrier coming out the same one that you have been using these past few years? if so, you may want to consider looking into other farriers as well. a good farrier is hard to find for sure (took me 4 years to find my farrier and he's worth his weight in gold to me) but they really make a huge difference in the health and happiness of your horse(s).
 
#13 ·
This is not the farrier that caused the initial problem for them mare. This is the farrier who fixed that problem and has done a wonderful job with some of the rescues here and a foundered mare. Which puzzles me why this mare has problems again. I am going to chat with her Monday and see if we can't figure something out, if this is for whatever reason beyond her knowledge I'll look again. I have been threw eight farriers in the past five years. The only farrier who I LOVED trimming this mare sadly passed away. I am running out of local farriers to try out.
 
#14 ·
oh ok. well i'm glad this one seems to be better than the previous ones. :) hopefully between the two of you something can be figured out. *fingers crossed*

my farrier is 71 this year. i hope he continues on for a LONG time. although, as horrible as it seems to think about, if he does pass away his son is also a farrier and has been working as such for 14 years already. i hope he doesn't move away!
 
#16 ·
Thanks.
The farrier that passed was a good friend, an excellent mother, passed away at 36.
The lady we have now has been on Godsend after all of the other loons in between! Shes an excellent trainer and I really hope when I bring things up we can get something figured out to get Molly comfortable again.
 
#17 ·
Just offering my random two cents. I don't think it ever hurts to get a second opinion especially when you have been having issues. Now I know there are plenty of amazing farriers not credited, I'm not saying you need a certification to be good(my farrier isn't on the list but I would never trade him he knows his feet and I've known him for 6 years) However, the american farriers association has a list of farriers by state and you can (I believe) enter your zip code and find credited ones nearby. I don't think it would hurt to ask for an evaluation? That's just what I would do in ypur shoes.
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#18 ·
She may not be poorly fed, just have too much sugar in her diet. Hay and pasture can be high in sugars, and senior feed is often high in sugars. Check out this article on feeding and the links provided.
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You will need to have your hay and pasture tested, to see what the sugar content is. You need to greatly reduce the sugars in the diet and make sure you're meeting your horse's mineral needs without going overboard on anything.

If this farrier is the one who's been trimming her and she's so sore, then I would try to find a new farrier or trimmer. She needs to have her feet better balanced or a different trim method if she's sore for more than 24 hours after a trim.
 
#21 ·
NO farrier, no matter how experienced, can see what is going on inside a hoof without x-rays or radiographs. If you can't get a farrier that can do radiographs then you will need to find a vet that will do them and then show them to the farrier/s of your choice.
 
#22 ·
I've been staring at those pics for 10 minutes. For the life of me, I just don't see the bulge. It's like those 5 dimensional pictures. I just can't see them. Too me that just looks like a lot of sole. I was actually impressed by how much sole there is and how concave the foot is. Doesn't the concave foot indicate the coffin bone actually receding up into the foot where it should be? I get that the theory here is that it is rotated and the tip of the bone is the bulge you're all seeing. Just looking for clarification. Also, if that bulge was a rotated bone, wouldn't that horse be standing on her hind legs to get away from the pain?
 
#23 ·
how concave the foot is. Doesn't the concave foot indicate the coffin bone actually receding up into the foot where it should be? I get that the theory here is that it is rotated and the tip of the bone is the bulge you're all seeing. Just looking for clarification. Also, if that bulge was a rotated bone, wouldn't that horse be standing on her hind legs to get away from the pain?
I'm not 100% sure, when i first looked at the picture i thought it was very concave also, but now that i look at the edges where the sole meets the wall, you can actually see that it's convex, it took me studying it for a goof 10-15 minutes before i could see the bulge lol
 
#28 ·
That's what I thought it was.... I've been told by more than one trimmer that it's the toe callus. Soda gets the same thing every winter and I was told that it's due to the different ground conditions. He's actually MORE tender in the summer when he doesn't have the callus.

Ramey's pics look more like an actual bulge instead of a ridge IMO.

Either which way if your mare has been tender/lame this long it's a good idea for find a vet/farrier combo you can trust. Have you asked your farrier which vet they work with on the difficult cases?
 
#30 ·
Thank-you all

My farrier will be out this afternoon. After studying the angles of her feet and stand she preferred six farriers ago (the one who passed away) I've selected a few pictures to show the current farrier. Molly was much more comfortable then and no one has been able to get her close to great since, until this lady, and even then we have a few kinks to work out yet clearly.

Her heels are long. The farrier that kept this horse comfortable left her toes much longer, I think we'll start there.

This is a photo from 2006 when she was comfortable -


This is a current photo -


She has always ridden a bit like a "rusty pick up truck" but she has been very short strided this winter. I'd been chalking it up to she is 24 and I am sure has arthritis in several locations, but I'd like to see less heels and get X-rays to see whats going on in there.
 
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