Bad Farriers! - Page 3

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Bad Farriers!

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    02-16-2010, 05:48 PM
Well I bet shed say that he tried to kick her, though I would have seen a kick (since I was holding him), but otherwise there is nothing in here that she can argue. My husband was there when she called me and can vouch for the way she spoke to me when she did call, and boy was that fun >XP.
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    02-16-2010, 05:55 PM
Acceptable discipline varies from horse to horse. I trim a couple of extremely stubborn/dull cold blooded horses that probably wouldn't notice if you dropped a grenade under their backside. But I also trim a lot that are sensitive and more reactive. The same discipline for both styles of horse wouldn't be appropriate.

The Fjords and Hafflingers I do will try to lean and lay down on me so I use the point of my elbow firmly planted in their side. They figure out pretty quickly that the sharp elbow digging into their rib isn't fun so they stand back up straight. I don't jab or slam them with it. I just tuck my arm in close to my body with the elbow toward the horse and when they lay into it, they get some uncomfortable pressure.

The hotter horses I do like TBs and Arabs are usually good with a "Stand Up!" and nothing else. Each horse is different.

When a horse is truly being belligerant, no attention span, putzing around worried about the other horses or getting too antsy, I either have the owner do some ground work for a minute or two, or I do it. Step back, over, come up, whoa. It gets their mind back on the task and makes them understand that the humans have the ability to move their feet.

Some youngsters or ones that haven't been handled much need distraction with a hay bag hung on the wall, or they need to go for a walk down the aisle and back after each hoof.

The take home message is that at the end of the day:

1. I can't get hurt.
2. You can't get hurt.
3. Horse can't get hurt.
4. Horse has to be calmer at the end of the trim than at the beginning.
5. Everything has to be positive, even if discipline was needed.
6. Everybody has to remember that discipline and punishment are two different things. Depending on the horse, humane and compassionate discipline can be administered professionally and safely but in my opinion, punishment is NEVER the responsibility or right of the farrier (or vet). I personally define punishment as hitting, screaming (versus a stern word or the horse's name), jerking on a chain, or otherwise harassing, scaring, or inflicting severe pain to the horse.

It takes me 20 minutes to do the average trim, but I allow 30 per trim in case there are issues. If the time used goes beyond 30 minutes then I either charge an additional fee for my time, or I reschedule that horse if I have to get to another barn. This prevents me from feeling rushed or stressed because I'm spending too much time, will be late for the next appointment, or am not getting paid for my time.

Also I know my limits on how many horses I can treat/trim/see in a day without getting too tired. I don't over-book myself if possible, and if a day is particularly busy, I put the "worst" horses at the start of the day and the best ones at the end of the day. So for instance, I'm not going to add a new unhandled 2 year old to my last stop of the day when I'm tired and just want to go home. But I will schedule that horse first thing in the morning and I will schedule other apointments accordingly so I have double or triple the time allotted in the book for that horse that will undoubtedly be a problem. Yes, you'll pay for that extra time but I promise it will be worth it
    02-16-2010, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by Padrona    
The take home message is that at the end of the day:

1. I can't get hurt.
2. You can't get hurt.
3. Horse can't get hurt.
4. Horse has to be calmer at the end of the trim than at the beginning.
5. Everything has to be positive, even if discipline was needed.
6. Everybody has to remember that discipline and punishment are two different things. Depending on the horse, humane and compassionate discipline can be administered professionally and safely but in my opinion, punishment is NEVER the responsibility or right of the farrier (or vet). I personally define punishment as hitting, screaming (versus a stern word or the horse's name), jerking on a chain, or otherwise harassing, scaring, or inflicting severe pain to the horse.
Right on! That's how it should be. There at least needs to be an understanding of what the horse owner wants for the horse if discipline IS needed during the trim. I told mine what she couldnt do and she did it anyway, which is a no-no in my book. She jsut got too frustrated and took it out on the horse, which is not fun for a horse owner to deal with.

Plus I forgot to mention, my horse was spooking at my water scraper near his butt after that! I rinsed him off several days later after he got smacked, and I hadnt even touched the scraper to him yet and he was stepping way from me, and he is NOT afraid of me! So I have been petting him with my scraper and then moved up to a rasp over the last couple of weeks to recondition him to not be afraid of the rasp itself on his next trim. So that is also the fault of the farrier hitting my horse.
    02-16-2010, 06:09 PM
Green Broke
Reaver - did you remove the tags so she wouldn't see this thread? Or did the Moderator?

I think the most important thing an owner can do is make sure the horse is trained well for the farrier and vet. Not enough people do this (not saying that is the case for the OP).
    02-16-2010, 06:23 PM
Looks like a mod did it, because I don't think you can actually edit the tags on the first post. I don't really care if she saw it or not.

As for my horses training, he is obviously still being desensitized to a lot of stuff due to his previous issues (definitely abused), but had no issues with the previous farriers until this particular farrier came along. I completely understand that the training is for the owner to do, not the farrier. But I think that the farriers also need to respect how the owner trains their horses, and to oblige the owner with their methods of disciplining and NOT the farriers. If the farrier is not comfortable working with those conditions, then they should tell the owner that they are not comfortable working with the horse in those conditions and have the owner find a farrier who will work with their standards. This person blatantly ignored how I wanted my horse treated, so she will get no respect form me or my horse for the way we were treated.

I completely agree with Padrona's difference between "discipline" and "punishment". My horse was hit harshly for something that just talking to him calmly wouldve fixed, and was then even more fear-filled after that. NOT how to handle an abused horse, at least not this one in particular.
    02-17-2010, 03:13 PM
The problem that my wife and I tend to have the most is finding a farrier at ALL. There's a few of them around, but I have not been able to consistently get the same farrier out more than once. I had one guy with WONDERUL credintials come out and trim/shoe my app and he did great. And his prices are plenty acceptable. However, when I tried to call him (for over a month) to come back out and do all three horses, he was not to be found.

Called another kid to come do them, and he never even bothered to show. Finally I paid my brother to come out and trim them, and he did a fine job. He just takes a while, and I won't be able to use him when I start needing shoes in the spring.

We've got a strange lot as well. The app is generally ok, but he can be a little goofy. The grey doesn't cause any problems until you get to his back leg on his blind side, and then he's just a little jumpy. The TB is usually the pain, and when my bro came and did them we think that he's had some sort of bad experience before based on how the other two farriers that have trimmed him before got the job done as opposed to my brother's methods (which were just generally more friendly and taking breaks when needed).

I really really would like to find a CONSISTENT farrier to come get them done so that we have someone who knows our horses and their hooves so they're done consistently and perhaps we can avoid problems as well and try new things without the variables of different farriers and their methods.
    02-17-2010, 03:36 PM
OP I am confused. If you hated this trimmer so much because they were horribly mean to your horse and you found their treatment of your horse totally unacceptable, etc, etc, why did you want them to come back and finish? I would think that if you were that offended by her treatment of your horse (since you are implying she has set back his training and all) you would not want her to touch your horse again and you would be immediately hiring a different farrier/trimmer to come out and finish the job. Not wasting 6 weeks begging someone you do not trust to come back.

It almost sounds like you are more upset about the farrier not coming back and not returning your calls than you are about the farrier hitting your horse. And how dare the farrier say your horse kicked.

I only hire professionals (trainer, farrier, vet) that I trust with my horses.

If you were holding your horses head you could have easily missed a kick. Or what felt like a kick to the person who is underneath your horse.

My farrier is the one whose life is in danger underneath my horse. I leave discipline/corrections to him (something we have discussed) because me correcting at the head can lead to more problems for him underneath. There have been times where I actually thought the farrier should have been more stern with my horse than he was. I find anything that puts the farrier at risk to be wrong and my horses know better.
    02-17-2010, 04:00 PM
My farrier/vet/other equine professional is allowed to discipline my horse if I don't get to him first when he's acting like a butthead.

OP, you said you hated how she treated your horse, and yet you hounded her for 6 weeks trying her to get her to come back and finish the job. Why?

If anyone deliberately mishandles an animal of mine, I pay them for their time and tell them they're not welcome back on the property.

Anything else that needs to be done will be finished by another professional, and I'll pay another fee.

So, are you angry that she over disciplined your horse, or is the real reason you're upset because she told you your horse is dangerous, and she wouldn't come back?

Also, how do you know your horse was abused before you got him? Just because he acts like a major freakshow about some things doesn't necessarily mean he was abused, just that he might be an illmannered puke.

Unless you actually saw the animal being abused and pulled him out of an abusive situation, I wonder how you have any real way to know that he was.

I have a gelding who can be an illmannered puke when he doesn't want to do something. He wasn't abused by his previous owner, and I sure as heck haven't abused him.

She spoiled him rotten and treated him like a 4-legged person though, which accounted for a lot of his 'tude when I got him. I discipline and treat him like a horse, not a 'fur baby'.

I get tired of people who say, "Poor Pookie MUST have been abused! Look at the way he reacts!", when all Pookie needs is a come to Jesus meeting, and made to behave.
    02-17-2010, 04:14 PM
It really is not hard to get a horse to stand really well for a farrier but it can take a little time and consistency which is what most people refuse to offer their horses. If you pick up your horses feet and hold them and move them around a little each day and maybe tap on them with something that will make a metallic sound there is no reason why the farrier should have to discipline your horse. Even if the horse has been "abused" with consistent, knowledgeable handling in a short time the horse should be good with his feet.

Slightly off topic I once worked on a ranch in the sandhills of nebraska and there were some really well broke ranch horses that would kick your face off if you tried to pick up a foot. The ground is all sand there and many horses go thier whole lives without ever having thier feet trimmed because if they are ridden much the sand wears the hoof down. In fact the only time I saw a horse with shoes on was one that was ridden too much and the sand wore the hoof sore. Shoes didn't last as long there either.
    02-17-2010, 04:43 PM
I never would have paid a farrier that hit my horse in the first place...


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