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Continuation, help finding why Bailey is lame

This is a discussion on Continuation, help finding why Bailey is lame within the Horse Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category

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        09-05-2012, 07:36 PM
      #21
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hidalgo13    
    I'll keep her on stall rest for now, but I'm going to have a heck of a time trying to convince to get a vet out.
    The SPCA or whoever your relevant animal welfare authorities should have an easier time 'convincing' them.
         
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        09-05-2012, 10:00 PM
      #22
    Super Moderator
    Please, PLEASE let's keep Animal Welfare and Animal Rights groups out of stuff like this. Surely we can figure out how to handle a lame horse without bringing in authorities that would like to see all horse use and ownership end.

    After all -- this horse is not 'suffering'. This is not an emaciated horse with bed sores from being down. This is a horse that is not even apparently lame at a walk and has to be pushed into a trot to even see it. This horse is NOT suffering. I have severe arthritis. I would trade my daily pain level for that of this horse any day. Let's keep it all in perspective and not demonize business owners that allocate Vet funds differently than we would. Obviously this owner is a 'good feeder' to a fault. A horse is not real neglected that is being fed too much.
    Hidalgo13 and DRichmond like this.
         
        09-06-2012, 12:28 AM
      #23
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    Please, PLEASE let's keep Animal Welfare and Animal Rights groups out of stuff like this. Surely we can figure out how to handle a lame horse
    Cherie, I guess you didn't read what the OP has told of the situation. I am all for avoiding calling authorities on people generally - I think most cases of cruelty, neglect, etc are due to owner ignorance & they generally want to do the right thing if they know better. It seems this is far from the case here though. By all means, if you reckon you can tell us better ways to deal with a situation where the owner is negligent & uncaring and the only one who seems to care has no authority over the situation, fire away!

    Quote:
    without bringing in authorities that would like to see all horse use and ownership end.
    Are they a bit fanatical in your neck of the woods then?? If I called them over here, their first & foremost priority seems to be educating the owner on good care and responsibilities & they would warn the owner that they may be prosecuted if they continue to neglect the animal. Perhaps whatever the equivalent of the RSPCA, or the shire ranger may be best if the others are silly about stuff then.

    Quote:
    After all -- this horse is not 'suffering'.
    The horse is lame & has apparently been that way long term without care. I don't get how you come to the unequivocal conclusion, without even first hand experience, she's not suffering???
         
        09-06-2012, 12:34 AM
      #24
    Trained
    Well she's probably not suffering because she can't talk, or complain, or pinpoint the problem area by pointing at it *rolls eyes*
    Posted via Mobile Device
    loosie likes this.
         
        09-06-2012, 08:08 AM
      #25
    Started
    I looked up stifle problems on Google, and while I have not completely eliminated that, they say the horse usually drags it's foot and tries not to lift it too high, keeps it low to the ground and doesn't extend it very far. In the video she extends her leg as much as the good one and while obviously is limping as she tries to bring the foot forward, she isn't dragging it in any way.
         
        09-06-2012, 08:38 AM
      #26
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hidalgo13    
    I looked up stifle problems on Google, and while I have not completely eliminated that, they say the horse usually drags it's foot and tries not to lift it too high, keeps it low to the ground and doesn't extend it very far. In the video she extends her leg as much as the good one and while obviously is limping as she tries to bring the foot forward, she isn't dragging it in any way.
    Not always. Where the patella is more involved they will drag the leg almost behind them as it tends to 'lock' and the stifle can also do this. My mare has a stifle problem and when its at its worst - she has good and bad times - she moves in exactly the same way as this mare does
    I have also seen horses with hip joint problems swing the leg to the side in the same way
    The thing that strikes me with this mare is that although my mare will rest her affected leg to ease the pressure on the joint from time to time the mare you have there seems reluctant to put weight on that foot at all if she can avoid it which was why I wondered if the trouble was in the foot
    What I dislike the most here is the idea that the owner has that it will 'sort itself out'. I agree in cases of strains & sprains etc that this is the case but without knowing whats even wrong I don't know how they can assume that. It could be that standing in the stable is the worst thing for her or it could be the best thing. Talk about working 'blind' for the cost of a vet call out, that's stupid to me
    Hidalgo13 likes this.
         
        09-06-2012, 08:44 AM
      #27
    Started
    I'd call the vet and spend my own money, but I can't afford it, and frankly it's the stupid BO's responsibility. I'll keep you guys posted on the situation.
         
        09-06-2012, 07:16 PM
      #28
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Are they a bit fanatical in your neck of the woods then??
    No, where I live they are just the opposite. I have lived places where they were that fanatical, but here it is 'ranch country'. You can only call the County Sheriff's office and they would give you a going over for calling them out for a slick, fat horse that was barely lame. You cannot get them to do anything for an emaciated, 3 legged 'hopping' lame horse. They would either be mad at you for wasting their time or give you a going over telling you what a 'real' neglected horse looks like. I've had numerous people call me to ask what they could do for some poor, nearly dead horse in some back pasture near them because the Sheriff would not do anything about it. The current Sheriff (lame duck after last election) has actually told people "If they did not like the way someone was feeding their horse, they should go give it some feed themselves" or "mind their own business." They did tell one guy with an emaciated old toothless horse that they would shoot it for him if he had a place to put it. A few days later it could not get up and died. I was ready to go shoot it myself, but husband said to "stay out of it. The sheriff could not make him shoot it. It wasn't any of my business."

    This, by the way, never happened when horses had the 'value' created by a solid slaughter horse market. This has only happened during the last few years.

    I have two old 'pensioned off' mares that are much more lame than this mare.

    One is a retired old roping horse with severe Navicular Syndrome. She hobbles around but is fat and happy living out her years here. [She is well into her 20s now.] I quit breeding her years ago. She has two daughters that have been exported to the UK and Ireland that sold for 10K each and another one here in the brood band. I would love to have another foal out of her but do not want to make her carry a foal on her sore old feet.

    The other has an old leg injury that became arthritic and left her permanently lame. Like this mare, it is almost undetectable at a walk, but she bobs her head when she trots. The Vet did not think she would be any worse carrying a foal and since she is very kind and is drop dead gorgeous, we decided to breed her this year and let her raise a foal next year. If it makes her more lame, I won't breed her again.

    The mare in this thread and in the video is very well fed and cared for -- too well fed. She is FAR from suffering. If you want to see a lame horse that is really suffering, I am sure I can go find one and video it for you. There are probably a dozen of them within 5 miles of my house. Every serious breeder around here (and there are several) have brood mares far more lame than my two or this one.

    I would just save my hysteria for horses that are far more neglected and in much worse shape than this one. A lot of Vets around here would just tell the owner to turn her out for 2 months and then reevaluate her. Unless a horse has special emotional value or real high monetary value, people and Vets will not spend more on diagnostics than the monetary value of the horse. Here, a horse is livestock just like your cattle. If one has a special attachment to a horse, they spend what they can afford on one. If not, health decisions are often based strictly on value, replacement costs and treatment costs.
    Hidalgo13 likes this.
         
        09-06-2012, 08:16 PM
      #29
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    No, where I live they are just the opposite. ..... You cannot get them to do anything for an emaciated, 3 legged 'hopping' lame horse. .... It wasn't any of my business."
    So what were you going on about fanatics for then?? And because your sherrif is uncaring & useless, this means...? IMO there is certainly a balance & much grey area to be considered regarding 'other people's business', but I feel sorry for animals(& kids & such) in bad situations where no one will help because of too much 'not my business' syndrome.

    Quote:
    I have two old 'pensioned off' mares that are much more lame than this mare.
    So because you have permanently lame horses who you have judged to be not suffering(not judging that but surely you realise how subjective that is) and are, in your expert opinion, worse than a horse you've seen only in a video, that means that you know the horse in the vid is 'far from' suffering. (I thought I'd heard you say somewhere you don't play vets over the internet??) I haven't even seen the vid. I'm not saying she is in terrible pain or anything, but I don't think automatically assuming that to be the case is any more rational than assuming she's not.

    Quote:
    I would just save my hysteria for horses that are far more neglected and in much worse shape than this one. A lot of Vets around here would just tell the owner to turn her out for 2 months and then reevaluate her. Unless a horse has special emotional value or real high monetary value, people and Vets will not spend more on diagnostics than the monetary value of the horse.
    Oh it's hysteria now?! Rather that than your opinion, that we should all just ignore any situation that isn't critical & our own business. And horses who aren't actually worth anything money-wise, we're justified in leaving them to rot regardless.

    I am replying to OP's post at face value - I don't know the situation or OP so I have no right to just assume she's over-reacting(although others that saw the vid have said the horse is quite lame too). Regardless of what 'many vets' may advise, the point is that the owner hasn't HAD a vet advise. If it's longterm(more than a few weeks) or severe lameness, this is not acceptable IMO.
         
        09-06-2012, 08:24 PM
      #30
    Started
    Quote:
    Unless a horse has special emotional value or real high monetary value, people and Vets will not spend more on diagnostics than the monetary value of the horse.

    That's the perfect way of explaining what my trainer thinks.

    I don't have the impression Bailey is suffering. Uncomfortable maybe, yes (as I doubt any sort of limping is in any way pleasant), but she seemed more preoccupied with the lesson going on in the arena than her lameness when I was walking her. She'd often perk her ears at things or when I approached her stall (so she can't be that miserable). I am not saying she is absolutely no sort of pain or discomfort!

    I will do my absolute best to get her to loose weight, and if her condition doesn't change, I will try to get a vet out (or call one, or do something!). In the mean time, she is more mobile than she was a month ago, and I know for a fact I wouldn't be able to get a vet over at the moment, no matter what I did (please don't' judge me on this. While I have explained a lot about my situation, you cannot fully understand unless you are in my shoes). If she stays just as lame for another few weeks, or even get's worse, I'll be able to use that excuse to convince my trainer that it's not "one of those torn ligaments that heal with stall rest" and that finally a vet is actually needed.

    Thank you all again for the advice.
    loosie likes this.
         

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