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Coughing induced by laying down!

12K views 97 replies 21 participants last post by  Jan1975 
#1 ·
Some of you may know my 16 yr old Arab gelding Harley has a chronic cough. Only in the winter, and usually only coughs first thing in the morning. Last winter, it got so bad, the vet put him on Dex. This year, I am managing it with natural supplements, but it's slowly getting worse.

Last night, we put a motion-sensing video camera outside his stall because he has gotten out a couple of times and we're trying to figure out how he's doing it. So I got a really good idea of what he does all night (329 30-second video clips, to be exact!). This led to the discovery that anytime he lays down, he gets up a few minutes later in a big coughing fit. Like full-body coughing, a lot more than what I've been observing in the morning, which was more of a light cough. It happened 3 times, so not a coincidence. He is coughing a lot more at night than during the day, which was a surprise to me. I think it may even be preventing him from getting enough down time (he would only lay down a few minutes before getting back up to cough).

Other relevant info: he had a severe case of pneumonia when he was 8. He does sometimes have thick, whitish mucus, but not all the time. Never coughs in the summer (even though he likes to nap laying down during the day). Coughs more when it's colder outside. The coughing is NOT exacerbated by exercise. I do not believe it is COPD yet (neither does the vet), but want to avoid having it develop into COPD.

The vet has been informed of this and will be coming for a visit. I'm hoping this new information will help him determine the best way to manage this cough. I have tried several herbal supplements which help, but do not clear it up completely. One I haven't tried yet, but that I have on order so will be adding it soon, is spirulina (blue-green algae). I'm also steaming his hay, which again, seems to help some, but not completely. But if anyone has ideas, I'm all ears! Things I could discuss with the vet (who likely is going to suggest Dexamethasone again)....
 
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#3 ·
I use pellets. Last winter it was shavings. It doesn't seem to make a difference.

He may well need Dex. It was painful to watch those full-body coughing fits and I worry about his joints if he can't sleep laying down. But if we do the Dex again, I want to have a serious conversation with the vet about long-term effects. We were able to wean him off it last spring though, so he wouldn't need it year round, just during the really cold months. Probably 3-4 months a year.
 
#4 ·
Agree with Dream
A horse coughs either because he has an infection or an allergy
The sensitization that is part of the allergic response, does lead to the development of CPOD.
When he is lying down, he will be more intimately exposed to whatever is on that stall floor
 
#5 ·
This will happen in calves that had severe pneumonia - their lungs never fully heal from the disease. When laying down (and cows lay down a lot) the extra pressure of body weight and organs causes the lungs to have to work harder - since they are already compromised the bodies reaction to get more oxygen is to cough.

I do not believe that this is reversible. In cows it causes unthriftiness (harder to gain and keep weight on)

This is just my experience with calves. We tend to inherit the calves that others would let die- we nurse them back to health and raise them to harvest. We do 4-8 calves per year
 
#8 ·
This makes sense to me. Except the part about unthriftiness. Harley has no issue gaining - and keeping! - weight on. I'm still hopeful there's something we can do to alleviate it. He's only 16. I want him to live as long as possible. Humans who get pneumonia are also more prone to getting it again and again. I wonder if we shouldn't try a round of antibiotics.
 
#6 ·
I'm not sure that this is caused by the bedding, but just in case...

Have you heard of or tried rice hull bedding?
I am just thinking that if it IS the bedding then it must be caused by the scent of the wood (since you first used shavings and now pellets). Unfortunately there are very few dust free options out there that do not contain wood. There is something we have here in the states called 'Carefresh', but it is marketed for small animals in small bags (the small animals cannot take the wood scent, it overloads their little lungs). I think it would be very expensive to try to bed a horse with it.

Some other options I have read of: peat moss and shredded newspaper. I heard that the newspaper can temporarily dye white horses with the print though!

You could also put rubber mats in his stall, and then bed very lightly on top of that with something hypoallergenic.
 
#7 ·
I seriously doubt it's the bedding because a) he doesn't cough in the summer (same bedding, much dustier when it's hot and dry), b) his whole stall is made of wood. Even if the bedding wasn't wood-based, wouldn't any exposure to wood do it? c) I already have rubber mats. Last winter, he was boarded in a barn that also had rubber mats and used shavings very sparingly. The stall was stripped every day and swept. He coughed worse there than here. I could try straw, but I think he'd eat it. There are no other bedding options around here. I suppose I could try newspaper, but that would make a heck of a mess!

I do NOT think it is an allergy to bedding for the simple reason that we use the same bedding year-round, but he ONLY coughs in the cold months. He also has a bit of mucus that sometimes flies out when he coughs. That tells me there is an accumulation of liquid and/or mucus in his lungs and/or respiratory system. I'm inclined to think that it is the act of laying down on his side that causes the mucus to interfere with his breathing. Kind of like trying to sleep with stuffed sinuses, you know? I think there is scar tissue on his lungs. Cold weather seems to make it worse. Laying down obviously exacerbates it (and does so with various kinds of bedding). My question is what are the treatment options?
 
#10 ·
I do think dry, cold air is a trigger. But why does laying down make it considerably worse?

Far as a growth in the lungs... is that something they could see with a portable X-ray machine? Guess I'll have to discuss it with the vet. If he has to be trailered in, that makes things more complicated (we don't have a trailer), but if it makes a difference in treatment, it might be worth it. However, if treatment is going to be the same no matter what, might as well just go straight to treatment.
 
#11 ·
I the treatment is Dex, then there is an allergic response that is being repressed, and Thus for the vet to declare there is no issue of CPOD and then use Dex, is rather contradictory , to say the least!

'Treatments

The drugs available are not curative, but there are some that will provide at least temporary relief for the COPD-afflicted horse. Some of the drugs available are bronchodilators, which, true to their name, dilate the bronchial passages so that more air can flow into and out of the lungs. There also are mucolytic drugs (those that dissolve mucus) that can be helpful.

Corticosteroids, such as prednisone and dexamethasone, can be used to provide at least temporary relief.
 
#14 ·
I the treatment is Dex, then there is an allergic response that is being repressed, and Thus for the vet to declare there is no issue of CPOD and then use Dex, is rather contradictory , to say the least!
To be precise, the vet has not given a specific diagnosis, since we can't seem to find the cause. Also, every time he has come out, Harley wasn't coughing because it is not consistent, only sporadic. He listened for rasping in the lungs, he did the inflated plastic bag test, found nothing. Did not advise scoping because the coughing is so sporadic. He only suggested Dex after I kept after him about this nagging cough that wouldn't go away.

The way I see it, COPD is not a black and white diagnosis, but rather a continuum. It's not like you can tell from a blood test that gives a positive or negative result. It's diagnosed from a series of symptoms and the frequency of those symtoms. I believe we discussed this (or maybe it was with someone else) on one of my previous posts about Harley's coughing. He does not meet the criteria for COPD, at least, not yet. But that's only because I've been managing it so carefully. I believe that if I just ignored it, we would be dealing with full-blown COPD. My goal is to prevent that.

Good point about the bronchodilators. Assuming they work for several hours, it would be worth trying one late at night to see if the effects carry through until morning. Will mention to the vet.
 
#15 ·
To play devil's advocate, how do you know he isn't reacting in the summer time? Maybe he still has coughing fits from lying down at night, but the warmer weather eases his phlegm production so you don't see daytime coughing...?


On the topic of unthriftiness (I think the idea about pneumonia-based scar tissue in his lungs is very viable), excessive weight gain is a form of unthriftiness in one sense.
I don't know how to explain it without going back to my gelding againnnn, but my gelding has a muscle disorder that, untreated, causes him vast amounts of pain and stress.
Before I knew about the disorder, he regularly was 200-250lbs overweight -maybe even more- while wearing a grazing muzzle 24/7, being turned out 24/7, no supplemental hay, and half a pound of a low-NSC ration balancer per day. He had constant diarrhea and it was pretty clear that he wasn't using his food well.
He showed no signs of his disorder, besides being grumpy and vastly overweight.
After I finally figured his disorder out and started treating it as best I could, he's eating triple the calories he was before just to keep his ribs covered!!

His body is no longer stressed so it's no longer in survival mode. Now that it's out of survival mode, his body is actually using the food as food instead of saving it for "the coming bad time."


Anyway, something like that *might* be going on with Harley. Decreased lung function can cause weight gain in humans, it probably could in horses as well.
hope you get it all figured out!! *hugs*
 
#19 ·
Hmmmm.... valid point about the possibility that he coughs in the summer too, but only at night. I have a feeling I am going to be viewing a LOT of video for the next while. I'm actually glad we did this, because we now have new information to share with the vet. I can only hope it will get us a little closer to finding a solution! But I find it hard to believe that I would NEVER hear him cough at all in the summer. We got up pretty darned early to go to shows and he wasn't coughing. In the winter, he coughs occasionally during the day, so I would assume I would hear the odd cough in the summer as well. Hard to say though...

How did you figure out it was a muscle disorder? Wouldn't he have shown symptoms of pain when being worked? While Harley doesn't like the girth tightened, he seems to enjoy being ridden and loves to canter and jump. I wouldn't say he gets fat on air, but he sure does love to eat! We have to limit him because he's small-boned and only 14.2hh. He eats hay cubes twice a day and about half a square bale of hay. About the same as my mare, who is also pretty dainty, but one inch taller. He does tend to have runny stool though, which is something else I'm grappling with. How did you diagnose your gelding with the muscle disorder? What kinds of tests does that require?
 
#16 ·
Subbing, may have thoughts later... My gelding has off/on resp. issues as well, and while we have no firm diagnoses, I'm curious to hear about how you're going about Harley's issues. Maybe I'll get some ideas in order to see what's triggering my guys coughing fits. *fingers crossed*
 
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#17 ·
When you see your vet ask about providing a humidifier - his lungs could be working harder to process not only the cold air but if it's dry like you say as well. If he produces more mucus in winter then his body might be overcompensating for the coldness/humidity which exacerbates the issue. I know it would be harder to provide heating/humidifier. I used to sleep with the window open in winter, despite the snow & I would get continuous, chronic chest infections because of it. They always felt better once the air was a reasonable temp. It wouldn't matter if my body was boiling, if I was still putting freezing air in my lungs they would hurt. Maybe he's more sensitive than your average horse because of this.

Either way you sound like a really nice person and I hope you get this figured out. I can't imagine how it was watching him suffer through the night :<


Best wishes x
 
#21 ·
Very kind of you Kalraii. :) I can try a humidifier. I have one to steam his hay. But I'd be adding humidity to the whole barn, not just his stall, and I worry about growing mold and just making things worse. But it's something I can consider... the more options you kind folks throw out, the more things I can discuss with my vet.
 
#18 ·
Ok, hear me out because this is stupid, lol

I get on some pretty bad night time coughing jags. It is not from allergies. The cough, for reasons I don't get, are generated in my esophagus. I can feel it.

Also for reasons I don't get, if I take four 150mg Ranitidine, things seem to open up and the cough goes away.

Ranitidine is also an acid reducer. I used to give Streeter (16) 150 mg tablets twice daily. Streeter never coughed but he did have ulcer issues. The Ranitidine worked for a short period but I eventually always had to buy Omeprazole from the vet.

My point is this:. Maybe Harley needs something to relax his esophagus when he is laying down. I don't know, it's a wild-out-in-left-field theory but you have tried everything else. Maybe a bronchodilator isn't quite the right thing.

And FWIW, when I was five, I did have bronchitis that went into pneumonia, that went into rheumatic fever. I never seemed to have any lung damage. This coughing thing didn't show up until I was in my late 50's. It could be there was not enough scarring to cause problems until I got older with a weaker immune system.

If you want to try the Ranitidine, the formula is 2.74 mg per POUND. Yes, that's a lot. You could try it for a couple of days and if it helps, maybe find something the same but cheaper.

I wish I had something more sensible. If I can remember when Joker's chiro comes to work on him next month, I'm going to ask her what she thinks. She is going for her masters in a form of Eastern medicine and she has taken Dr. xie's herbal course.

There IS somwthing out there but it's apparent it isn't anything normal that we are all familiar with.
 
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#20 ·
That would be so, so nice of you walk! Would love to hear what she thinks! I am still looking for someone in my area who Eastern medicine on horses. Not having much luck. Even our vets are not really equine vets - they're large animal vets. They work for the Dept. of Agriculture. I like our vet, but he treats a wide variety of animals. There are no other options around here.

As for the Ranitidine, it might be worth a shot! So are you thinking some kind of acid reflux? That may not be as crazy as you think... though again, why not in the summer? Why only when it's cold out? I will research it some more...
 
#22 ·
I found this on Stable cough

;Stable Cough:

This is one of the most common coughs. Horses at rest, normally in the stable or barn. It can be brought on, or made worse by eating, drinking, lying down or during sweeping. It can come and go with the changes of the seasons.

A dry cough with a wheezing cough, which can last for a couple of minutes each time. It will be considered chronic if it has been on going for 4 weeks. There may or may not be any changes in nasal discharge or elevated respiratory rate.
 
#24 ·
Here is avery good article on different coughs in horses, from Equus Magazine, that might help shed some light, or at least, a place to start and eliminate stuff

How Bad is Your Horse's Cough? | EQUUS Magazine
The only cough that sounds like Harley's is the one related to allergens. I can try to leave him out 24/7, but not tonight - we're being hit with a major freezing rain/hail storm and everything is covered with about 2 inches of ice. Once I figure out whether they can even go outside tomorrow, I can determine whether it's an option to leave him out tomorrow night, or the next one. However, he does use his stall for shelter, therefore will probably just go in there to sleep anyway. But maybe moving around more will help? My worry, as you know, is that in the past, colder weather has brought on more coughing. Keeping him warm seemed beneficial, so turning him out in the dead of winter seems pretty brutal if his immune system is already vulnerable.
 
#25 ·
He may be reacting more in winter 1) because of the cold 2) the barn is more closed up in winter with less air circulating around (I know the stall doors are open but still less air) 3) he is spending more time in his stall in winter.

These are just suggestions as I'm trying to think of anything that could help poor Harley

I wonder if you put some bedding outside, no mats and perhaps he might try to lay down outside and it might help.
 
#33 ·
Thanks Woodhaven. But there is bedding outside. Because of the dutch doors, lots of bedding gets kicked out of their stalls everytime they come in and out. No mats. But lots of bedding! I have never seen him laying down in the snow (just rolling), but I've seen Kodak nap in the snow for an hour. Harley does nap on grass or in his favorite sandy spot in the paddock in the summer, but doesn't seem to want to lay down in snow.
 
#28 ·
So, he has runny stools also and is over weight?
Has he ever had a CBC with white cell differencial? In the case of allergies, eosinophils are elevated
I do know, Smilie who is 100% fine, with full time turn out, will often cough, if I stall her overnight. This is even with all hay wetted, rubber stall matts and clean shavings She is very seldom stalled now, since I have not been showing her, and never coughs.
Of course, you can't leave him without shelter, but I would really think of having some horse shelters,and give him full time turnout. I do not bed my shelters. I also prefer to blanket when it gets really cold, like the week we were gone to Mexico. Temps that week went down to minus 30 C , and with strong winds.
I left blankets on Smilie and Charlie, telling our farm siter to take them off if it really warmed up. It did not, and so they just wore their blankets until I got back
When a horse lies down, his nose is much closer to any dust/allergen at ground level
All I know, is if a horse does not have some active infection, either viral or bacterial, or residual damage from a recent infection, they don't just cough for no reason
I would do the specific tests to rule out an allergic condition, which causes a hrose to become more and more sensitized withe each exposure, so that it takes very very little to produce a reaction (think booster effect)
 
#35 ·
So, to answer your first question Smilie - yes, Harley has chronic, but sporadic, soft stool. However, it's gone at the moment. His stool are nice and firm at the moment, and have been for a few days. It comes and goes, and is not completely liquid, just sometimes less firm. Bad enough to stain his hocks, but does not seem to be causing discomfort. No fever. He could probably shed a few pounds, but that's because it's winter and we can't ride as much. Also because he can't even move around much because of all the ice we've had. He's not obese. The weight will come off in the spring when he is more active. When he was on pasture, we didn't need to use a grazing muzzle, for example. He never got too fat grazing. It's just that he likes to eat and will not stop if you put hay in front of him, so we have to limit how much he gets.

Ruling out an allergic reaction sounds like a good step. Will also bring it up with the vet. He did get a full metabolic panel done and was fine, but it sounds like to test for an allergic reaction, you'd want to do it when the allergy has been activated.

Also, I understand what you're saying about horses being capable of living outside in the cold, however, if this isn't an allergy, and my gut feeling is right - that the cold makes it worse - and I put him outside when he hasn't had time to get used to it since he was in all winter, I could cause him to get sick again, maybe get pneumonia. I can't take that risk.

Furthermore, I do leave the top of his stall door open on mild nights. I tried leaving it open on colder nights (he likes to hang his head outside) and in the morning, he was coughing more than ever. Those dry, - 20 nights seem to be the worst. So while I know everyone says a COPD horse does better outside, at this point, I'm not convinced it's the best thing for Harley.
 
#31 ·
is he developing the heave lines ? sometimes they hide on a chubby horse.
some of the online vet supply sites carry a menthol cough syrup designed for horses. You can also have him allergy tested. Is your hay from the same field or from various fields ? Also do you get the hay at the same time each year ?
Same cut, such as 3rd cutting .
 
#32 ·
Thanks - I had to google heave lines and went through all the photos we have of him in various positions. He does not have them. Attaching one below.

He is on a cough syrup called Respi-free. It contains menthol, as well as other "natural" ingredients (as in, allowed even for shows). I have been giving him a low dose because I didn't think he was coughing much. The suggested dose is 30-90 ml once to 3 times daily. I had been giving him 30 ml twice a day. I upped it yesterday to about 40 ml 3 x /day. No coughing AT ALL this morning. Sadly, my motion-sensing video camera stopped working around midnight so I didn't see any coughing or laying down. I think the battery is dead. We will charge it and try again tonight. I can still increase the dosage by quite a bit. The stuff costs an arm and a leg, but if it helps prevent the coughing, I'll be happy to give it to him.

Finally, I did have my hay analyzed so have a pretty good idea what's in it. The hay cubes are Timothy only and he only gets a little so I can give him his supplements. I did buy a second batch of hay because I was worried we'd run out. The bulk of our hay is first cut, from one field. The second back it second cut, and far more grassy in texture. Because it's less dusty and because the vet suggested second cut hay might help cure his runny stool, I have been giving Harley more of the second cut hay, but he still gets a bit of both. In any case, as soon as I gave him the new hay (first cut, then second cut) last summer, he stopped coughing. Literally overnight. The previous hay he was on was from his boarding stable and it was very dusty. I had to wet it. The new hay was nice and fresh and seemed like very good quality hay. He didn't cough until it got cold again outside (or until the hay started to age and get more dusty).

Pic of Harley last November where you can see his belly.
 

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#40 ·
Vet says just give him Dex. :(

I'm not prepared to go there yet, but will keep some on hand in case things get worse. I upped the dose of Respi-free (contains some natural supplements), but am still not at maximum dose. He didn't cough once today, not even a little. Will set up the camera again tonight to see if he's still coughing at night. I know we're just managing it, but by alleviating the symptoms, I may be preventing it from being aggravated. Vet basically said it's likely his pneumonia has predisposed him to COPD and there's really nothing we can do. Allergy testing, in his opinion, is often inconclusive.

One thing at a time.... tonight, I will do everything the same, but keep the dosage of Respi-free where it is. The company that makes it also makes two other products I can try. One is a lung flush. If none of those products help, I will try using straw as bedding (equine massage therapist mentioned that he could be reacting to a type of wood, ie, spruce, pine, etc. that is common to shavings and pellets). If that doesn't help, I will start leaving his stall door open at night, assuming the weather allows it. I also have Spirulina on order, which is supposed to help, as does vitamin C according to some sources. Bronchodilators are also an option. Lots of things to try before I get to the Dex!!! But I will give it to him if I have to.

Will keep updating as I rule things out. Thanks to all for your ideas.
 
#41 ·
My chiro that also practices some Eastern Medicine is due to be here either Wednesday next week or the Wednesday after that.

Please REMIND me to ask her about Harley's issues and also if she might be able to locate someone in Ontario that would work with Harley.

Are you in the center of Ontario or close to any of the Provincial borders?

I know there has to be something to help him and my chiro may even be able to hazard an herbal guess. But you would have to have someone credentialed in the area to order it, as everything of Dr. xie's is by prescription.

anyway, I don't want to forget to ask her, so help me remember ------ I'm old ya know, lollol
 
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#42 ·
Am putting a note in my agenda to remind you! LOL, not exactly young over here either!

I'm about 14 hours by car from Ontario, LOL. That's if you eat on the road and only stop once for a pee break ;)

I live in New Brunswick, wayyyyyy east. Central New Brunswick. I asked around at an Equine expo this weekend and no one knows of anyone around here. But if your chiro knows of anyone in the Maritimes, maybe they travel. My equine massage therapist goes all over the Atlantic provinces to do her thing. It's fairly common. But even she didn't know of anyone.
 
#43 ·
While I do believe in some alternative medicine, there is an actual medication , FDA approved, that helps horses to breathe, and I used it a long time ago, when a stud of ours was fed dusty hay, at a trainers, and thus would cough on exercise. It helped very, very well

it is called ventripulmin, and is a syrup you just put over food

Ventipulmin® Syrup | Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica
 
#46 ·
Lots of things offered for consideration here, Acadian. I always think that when you get one of these mysteries it may well be the combination of a variety of things (rather than one) which makes it so tricky to figure out. As an fyi, I have a horse prone to heave attacks in summer only (it starts when the weather gets hot and ends when the days cool down). He takes ventipulin (sp?) and dexamethasone. The ventipulin helps open up the airway extremely well while the dex reduces inflammation. I'm paying a little over $100 for a bottle of ventipulin and it will last me the whole season while he is affected.
 
#44 ·
Sounds like a good plan but just to throw out I've seen some impressive stuff with allergy testing/immunotherapy. I'm curious as to why the vet thinks it's inconclusive? Was it in response to the testing or the results? I can understand the results being inconclusive in the way of just because he's allergic to "x" doesn't mean that's why he's coughing.
 
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