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Dealing with EPM...Scared out of my MIND! *update* Sadly, horse euthanized.

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#1 ·
I have a 13 yr old TB gelding. About three months ago he dropped weight drastically. We started adding things to his grain to help with this (tried Purina Cool Calories, then went to shredded beat pulp, corn oil and calf manna). We also upped his hay intake. Nothing seemed to help. He started to shed out his winter coat and was bald underneath of it. He also around the same time started having trouble urinating (would pee frequently and in very short spurts). I freaked and called our vet. Blood was drawn, tests run and it was determined that he had a severe infection. This infection was causing him to be anemic, have low enzyme levels, his lack of new hair growth, his weight loss...etc. He was given a massive dose of penicillin and put oral antibiotics for two weeks. In this two weeks he started to put some weight back on, it wasn't much but it was noticeable. I thought we were doing good! Not two days after the end of the antibiotics things started going downhill. He was continually weak to the point of needing the barn to lean on to stand. He started hanging his head low, his bottom lip would droop and the weight started coming back off (yes, it was noticeable in such short amount of time). He was then put on an injectable vitamin complex to help with his anemia and enzyme levels (this was thought to be the reason he was so weak). A couple days later he started to stumble and went off his feed almost completely. He was then diagnosed with EPM.
I had heard of this disease in passing only. I started to do my research. What I have read about it terrifies me. His medication had to be ordered (a four day wait) and he has now been on it for three days (tonight will be his fourth dose). I have been told that it will take weeks for him to start to show improvement. The problem is that he is going downhill so fast. He is now completely lame in his back left leg. He practically drags it around. His head is never raised more then a foot and a half off the ground. We have had to move his hay and grain to the ground just to get him to take few bites. He is maybe taking in a quarter of the grain that he was originally and maybe a bead of hay a day. (Charlie is big horse, standing at 16.3, this isnt enough feed to sustain him). He is in so much pain (which he is on banamine for) that he grunts when he walks and refuses to back at all. His weight keeps dropping and he looks like a skeleton. I noticed tonight that he would stand with his head down and his mouth gaping open.
The only bright spot in this is that he hasnt gone down on us yet. He remains standing through it all even with the stumbling and pain that he is in. I have read the statistics for recovery of this disease. 80% recover with a 30% relapse rate. What I want to know, I can't seem to find...How far downhill are they before treatment doesnt work? What % of recovered horses recover enough to be sound for work? How will I know when he is to far gone to keep attempting to treat him? Is there anything that I can mix and basically force feed him (yes with a syringe if i have to) to make sure he is taking in nutrients?
I have never had to deal with ANY type of issues that would make me have to consider euthanizing one of my horses. I suppose you could consider me lucky so far. This is frustrating to the point of sickness. Seeing him as thin and in pain as he is while my other horses are fat and happy is probably the most painful thing in the world for me. I feel so helpless. He looks at me for help and I can't seem to give him anymore then I already am.

Any tips, advice....ANYTHING would be helpful right now. He is on banamine for the pain and ponazuril for the EPM. I bought a jar of Su-per DMSO gel that I had planned to rub on his legs but Im not sure if that is safe to use while hes on the other meds. My vet, although amazing at treating horses, isnt the type of person to stand and answer questions for me.
 
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#2 ·
Im so so sorry! I have a friend who just last week put her daughters pony club horse down because of EPM, he was diagnosed a year ago right after pony vlup champion ships in California and they did great and it hit the day after they got home. Hugs to you and your horse! I have never delt with EPM personally but I hope you figure something out that works for both you and your horse! You will be in my thoughts!
 
#3 ·
Hi there,
I'm so sorry to hear about your situation, and I'm sorry I can't give you any of the answers you're looking for. But when I read this I just had to reply and say that while I know this must be the most difficult thing ever, you shouldn't feel guilty for not being able to do more. You seem to be doing everything you can and I'm sure your horse appreciates it.
I was almost in tears reading this post, and then when I got to the part where you said your vet "isn't the type of person to stand and answer questions" I felt ill. A good vet should answer ANY question no matter how silly or trivial they think it is (unless they have an emergency to go to or something of course). I think that in order to get peace of mind for yourself and possibly some more answers you should get a second opinion from another vet. I wish we lived in the same area so I could recommend my vet to you, because she's truly incredible. Ask around for recommendations of a good vet who will answer your questions. In the meantime I wish you all the luck in the world and will be praying for you and your horse!
 
#4 ·
I'm so sorry you & he are going through this. It sounds like he got hit pretty hard with it.
The meds can stop further nerve damage but usually what damage is already done is not reversed though many horses learn to compensate. Is being hospitalized an option? They could provide IV nutrition for the short term.
You need to write down any & all questions you have & demand some answers from your vet. If he doesn't like to talk that's too bad for him because he has to. You are not going to be able to make any informed decisions until then.
I'll keep hoping for the best outcome possible. Again I'm sorry.
 
#5 ·
Thank you guys for the prayers...honestly at this point i'll take whatever I can get. People keep telling me "hes only been on the meds for three days, give it time" they dont have to see him every hour. they dont see the changes in him as things get worse.
honestly, I havent even spoken to my vet personally since the initial diagnosis of EPM and to give him the contact info of my horses previous owner and vets. All my questions have gone through the nurses at the vets office. Most of my questions they cant seem to answer. I asked one of them what she knew about EPM and her reply was, "nothing, except that its bad". All of my medication orders or other questions have gone through the nurse who has to contact my vet and then the nurse gets back to me. I understand the vet is busy. We only have two equine vets in my town and they are busy busy guys.
 
#7 ·
What test was used to diagnose the EPM? I'm curious because many times things are diagnosed as EPM that are not EPM.

.How far downhill are they before treatment doesnt work? What % of recovered horses recover enough to be sound for work? How will I know when he is to far gone to keep attempting to treat him?
Its hard to find answers to these questions because they are very individual to the horse. My horse was actually falling down when he had it as a 4 year old, but he recovered and is now a good trail horses. Some horses don't get near as bad and never recover to riding soundness. As to % that recover - I really don't know. I believe I read somewhere that a medication for EPM is considered successful as long as 60 or 70% of the test horses improve 2 grade scales. I'm saying this off of memory - so I'm not 100% positive, but it was something like that.

As to when not to attempt treatment - again, that is very individual decision and no one should make you feel bad for either trying treatment or putting him down. Its extremely hard and I'm so sorry you are facing this right now. Originally I said I would not treat Toby again if he came down with it again, but when faced with a few symptoms I had worried might be it I was questioning that decision. I don't think I know what I will do again if I'm ever faced with it until it happens.

My vet did have my horse on a DMSO IV a couple times a day when he was first diagnosed and it seemed to help him for a bit afterwards and didn't impact the effectiveness of the medication. I don't know about a rub for the legs though.

You may want to look into giving a cup of corn oil after administering the meds (mix in a tasty feed) as it is believed the oil administered right after the ponazuril helps it be absorbed better.

Also look into therapeutic levels of vitamin E. I believe it was 18000 IU per day - but I would have to double check that number. Vitamin E helps with the nerve regeneration and helps through the recovery. Just make sure its pure Vitamin E and not mixed with selenium or something else that could be overdosed. Your vet should be able to get it for you.

Good luck to you and your horse. EPM is a hard and trying disease and again, I'm so sorry.
 
#8 ·
I had a gelding treated for EPM about 5 years ago. He was given 4 doses of an DMSO IV treatment that took a few days to get in from another vet in Kentucky. The important thing was starting treatment asap because from what I was told, horses doesn't fully recover from EPM. Whatever damage is done, is done. There is no "reverse" for the disease, only an "off button" so technically there isn't a cure for the damage that's been done.

Cat says that her horse, to the point of falling down, recovered enough to be a trail horse. That is positive thinking.

My horse wasn't to the point of falling down, but it's like he didn't know where to place his back feet. He would stand with one foot ontop of the other and not even realize that it was there and trip when he'd go to move forward. We did the bloodtest and he came back positive for EPM, but there are also "false-positives" to where the horse may carry EPM, but not show any outward symptoms. My vet said many horses if you tested them, EPM would show up in their bloodwork due to having been exposed to it before. The most common way of getting it she said was raccoon feces. (disgusting creatures!)

My horse was never to the point of where yours was. I can't even say for sure that he had EPM, but he was treated with the DMSO IV. 4 times over the course of 12 days. He recovered well..

Depending on the severity of your horse...Which it sounds like it's pretty severe...You'll be able to tell what's best for them. If Charlie were my horse, I'd have to realize when the point of no return was and do what's best for the horse. The pain that he's going through must be unbearable. Being off his feed for so long and depending on the amount of water he's drinking is major. If he's not drinking enough water, his kidneys are going to fail. Has your vet down a renal panel on him to check his kidney output? I'd definitely look into that because if your horse is going through acute kidney failure, no amount of EPM treatment will help him.

There comes a point when we have to look at our horse and decide what's best for him, while pushing our selfish desires aside. I told myself if my horse goes off his feed, if he's not improving my X date, then I would make the call and put him to sleep.

I'm so sorry that your going through this. It's difficult.
 
#11 ·
Can you get your hands on colloidal silver and dose him in mash several times a day?

This is only my opinion,

If he's not on an IV and at a clinic from the description you gave of his condition, and if you aren't ready to give up and you don't think he is, see if you can get a sling for him to set up at home. Your vet should know where you can get one to use, if not we can hopefully put out the 911 for one. There are rescues and other orgs that have slings on loan.

Sounds like the quicker you can act the better from what you're describing. I would get gobs of Pedialyte and use it along with colloidal silver as the liquid in a senior feed mash with bran (no corn oil), oats if he'll eat them. No more A/Bs.

More thoughts coming.
 
#12 ·
honestly I couldnt tell you which test he ran to diagnose charlie. I do know that they can come back with a false positive and he mentioned that when he originally told me about the diagnosis but said the he was sure about this EPM diagnosis. At the time I didnt have any research under my belt.
I got a wild hair to check out youtube..people post videos of their poor babies with this disease..yes, i know its for others to see what to look for, but i can't imagine video taping my Charlie in the condition he is in...it just seems degrading to me. Weird huh? One thing I did notice though was all those horses with EPM still had their weight on...Charlie is almost skin and bones now.
he is on a vitamin B complex injection at the moment because of the amemia and enzyme levels being so low. I will question my vet, or rather the nurses apparently, about the vitamin E. I hate that its the weekend.

Why can't my vet just sleep in my barn until this is over????? :cry::wink:
 
#13 · (Edited)
hes not hospitalized. he is still out on pasture. I tried putting him on "stall rest" and he refused ALL food and water. He is currently on Purina Strategy grain with calf manna and corn oil added per vet instructions

I know stress can aggravate the EPM issue and Charlies best friend is my mare...when I separate them he gets extremely agitated. I want to avoid that at all costs. If that means he is calmer on pasture then locked in the barn, i'll keep it that way. Our pasture isnt huge by any means anyway. Since this began they have all been locked in a 1/2 acre section attached to the barn so I can keep him close.
 
#14 ·
What is his water intake? Is he still drinking?

My gelding never dropped his weight. So this is a big concern for Charlie. I'd suggest calling your vet and asking if a renal panel was done on him? Especially with him being anemic, that's a real worry for me. The kidneys send messages to the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells. If the kidneys aren't working properly, you can end up with anemia...which it seems like you are going through.

I wonder if he has a few different things going on?

Poor Charlie. And I'm with you, I would absolutely never record my horse with a horrible disease. It is completely degrading. (But also necessary for us to learn from) I personally, wouldn't do it.
 
#15 ·
yes, he is drinking. he doesnt move around much but I have personally seen his head in the water tank. He WILL NOT drink from his bucket in the stall though. The first few days of this we were keeping him in at night and he would refuse to eat or drink. he would leave his stall in the morning and chug from the big water tank as soon as he is out. Like i said, if he is eating and drinking and staying calmer out there then thats where he will stay.
And honestly, if its getting closer to where I would have to make the big decision to put him down, he can spend as much time with Skye as he wants. I wont take that away from him....or her

Oh jesus...there go the tears
 
#18 ·
actually the corn oil was originally suggested by my vet to help him put weight on...along with the calf manna that he is on. once we got the epm diagnosis i just kept him on it because of the absorption of the meds

so i guess keeping him on it was my idea..not my vets. since the epm diagnosis my vet hasnt said a word about how to keep him eating or get nutrients into him

the more i talk about this the more ****** off i get at my vet
 
#19 ·
My haflinger didn't necessarily have weight loss but did have a decent amount of muscle atrophy.

Normally:



When he had EPM and the other side was actually worse. I was so horrified by it I never did take a picture:



I kept mine out in the pasture when he was doing better and a dry lot/corral when he was bad. When he was at the clinic and actually stalled he was worse off than when he was allowed to roam. I did keep him separated for several weeks from the other horses so he could move with them in site but not be driven by them.
 
#23 ·
I'd find out what test was used to determine EPM. There are some more accurate tests now compared to when my boy was tested. If he used the old Western Blot I would ask for one of the newer ones.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Warm Bran Mash or Soaked Beet Pulp with applesauce mixed in? Or with crushed up peppermints?

A probiotic is also recommended. Prozyme is a good supplement that has digestive enzymes and probiotics in it to help restore the good bacteria in the gut that's been cleared out by all the rounds of antibiotics.

I don't know if yogurt is okay for horses? But that might be something that you could mix in with some food too.

"The EPM horse has special needs for nutrition. They should have very little alfalfa, and their diet should be rich in bermuda, orchard grass mix, and timothy hay. They also need help to boost their immune system, and we have recommended additional Colostrum or Beta Blend with Colostrum and Beta Glucan to help those horses, along with generous doses of EPM−Zyme which has anthelmetic herbs and herbs rich in naturally occurring iron. Our other clients have also treated their EPM horses by adding Vitamin E (from 1,000 to 8,000 IU per day) and vitamin C (1,000 − 5,000 mg per day). While others have added Folic Acid to their diets to help counteract the anemia caused by drugs."
http://www.earthsongranch.com/catalog/epm.pdf

Also, what kind of grain are you feeding?
 
#30 · (Edited)
There are a few articles about colloidal silver and EPM online but I picked one out for you if you'd like to take a look into it, it's the last article on the page:

Response to "Re: End of the Line -- Need Advice"

I used CS for a senior mare who had EPM, there was some irreversible damage but otherwise within 2 months she was good to go - she was dosed for 10 days the first month, and another 10 days the second month. It can be injected intravenously too.

Other helps for EPM are dandelion extract and garlic powder, along with microbials and/or probiotics as CLAPorte432 mentioned. And if he won't eat, you can try adding molasses to the mash :)

I personally wouldn't touch that ponazuril. Not with those side effects, uh uh.
 
#33 ·
Other helps for EPM are dandelion extract and garlic powder, along with microbials and/or probiotics as CLAPorte432 mentioned. And if he won't eat, you can try adding molasses to the mash :)
We have tried the molasses..it helped for a couple days but he stopped even looking at that a couple days ago. we were even adding it to his hay which helped for a while but, not anymore
 
#32 ·
Do you have a pet store around you? They sell timothy pellets for bunnies that might work. I used to work at a pet store and a 25# bad was under $9 for the generic brand.
 
#36 ·
CAT, I've used CS successfully for a variety of different vetting purposes: infections, abscesses, fistulous withers, a mare with EPM, wound spray, and on and on - lots of horses are alive and well due to "snake oil" LOL.

Personally I stick with what works :) But that's just me.
 
#37 ·
wow..things went downhill so fast tonight. I spent over an hour grinding up his feed in hopes of making sure he got plenty in him tonight. When I finally went out there, armed with my bucket of mush, a syringe and his meds; the other two horses were already in the barn but Charlie was no where to be seen. I found him in a corner on the other side of the barn, all by himself. I finally got him up to the barn door and just when he walked through, everything gave out and hit the floor. He scrapped up his side on the barn door quite a bit. He tried standing and fell back down. I tried helping him and he fell back down. After about fifteen minutes of this, i was pretty well freaked. Between myself and Charlies willpower we finally got him standing but he had to use the side of the barn for support. I made the decision right then to put him down. With everything we had already gone through, I felt that I couldnt allow him to keep hurting like this.
I called my vet, got the on call doc who hasnt been dealing with our situation. I told him (while bawling loudly) what was going on and that I needed to have my horse euthanized. He told me it wasnt important and to wait until Monday.

Now, do I assume this guy is an ******* and a lazy one at that or do you think he was giving me time to think this through so I could be sure?
 
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