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This has been killing me....

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        11-08-2009, 01:06 AM
      #41
    Weanling
    This is my first response on this board as well....this topic was "killing" me

    IMO...it is up to the owner and what is best for HIS or HER horse. I can't say what is good for your horse, I don't know your horse, but I can say what is good for MY horses. And interestingly I do both...... I have some horses that are stalled, and some horses that are out 24/7. So I can tell you it totally depends on the horse and what is best for them at that point in their lives so to speak.

    I have a 8 stall barn and out of that 4 horses are stalled from 7 at night till 7 am. I also have 3 horses that are out 24/7 . There is the rare time that they do come in over night for various reasons.....and hey guess what, they don't break the barn down, paw, chew, or act nuts...even though they are used to being out. Why? Well first off, they have food (and as much as horses are meant to wander) a horse spends 90% of its time eating, so if they have hay...they happy, secondly they have all their buddies inside, horses are herd animals as we all know, and if their friends are in, they are quite content to just hang out, eat, and sleep.

    I do not believe in only allowing a horse a limited amount of turn-out. I think they do need to get out, stretch, graze etc. for a good amount of the day.
    But to say it is cruel to stall a horse overnight is bull. I think it is cruel to leave a horse out 24/7 that cannot handle the elements (such as cold) so, that argument can go both ways really.

    The horse the OP mentioned being housed on straight concrete is insane.....and to say a lot of stables do that is also insane......I have worked in the horse industry for many years, and have NEVER encountered straight concrete? That is sheer ignorance on the owners part, and IMO no doubt the cause of the horses health issues, not the stalling itself.
         
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        11-08-2009, 02:06 AM
      #42
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by New_image    
    Can someone tell me why its so horrible to stall a horse at night and be let out in the AM? We train horses TO DO EVERYTHING!!!!!!!
    Can I train you to enjoy prison? You must agree prison isn't what it used to be, its quite the cushy living now all things considered. So for the next 24 years of your life you can live in a 8x10 cell, alone, for 14 hours a day. But don't worry on nice sunny days when laundry is done we'll let you play basket ball in the court under supervision for a few hours!

    Be realistic, its a horse. They weren't created to be boxed up and theres no other way to spin that. I suppose it isn't the end of the world but I've worked in barns and seen stalled horses. In fact, I just went to a nice & quite frankly gorgeous fancy show barn the other day to look at a mare. It was 30 degrees and raining so the horses were -of course- stalled all weekend. This was a Sunday morning, no one cleans stalls on Sundays and the horses had been in since Friday night. Given the fact that it was 30 and chilly the barn was shut up tight and heated to 50 degrees. Great for humans, bad for horses - especially the poor souls who were blanketed in addition! Horses were screaming, kicking stalls, pacing, nickering frantically. The smell ALONE was enough to give me a nauseating head ache, 20+ stalls of horse pee baked at 50 degreese and spun into the ground mixed with the dust. There they sat, hoping someone would let them out in the rain for just a minute to get a fresh breath of air.
    You know, I bet your right. I bet that those twenty or so stalled horses on there pine bedding, blanketed with the heat running were much happier than my poor unfortunate souls who were standing out in the rain, 30 degree temps, no blankets, rollin' in mud, not using run-ins.

    No, that's what humans like to see. A clean, dry, toasty horse. That does not mean the horses are happy nor does it make it better for them to stand locked up breathing ammonia and dust. If your horse is so happy to be dry and great full to you that you've locked him up so he can stay warm and dry as you put it, why not just let him have run in access? If he SO loves a stall, a barn, a roof over his head and a bed of shavings... Why not let him have a nice dry well bedded run-in? .......Because 96% of horses WONT use them and humans look outside to see a "poor wet horse". Conclusion, he doesn't appreciate the prison cell as much as you think.

    I agree there are exceptions. However most horses have, as I said, been trained to like there stalls. Its what makes there owners happy, its where they are fed, its a routine and they get used to it, creatures of habit.

    You ask whats so wrong about it.... (Read my posts, bad behavior, boredom, un natural, bad for heath both respiratory and legs/joints etc) I say give me a list of reasons WHY a healthy average horse should be stalled regularly?

    That's all I'm saying, JMHO :)

    Well my horses arn't in jail and that's so stupid! So a cat locked in a house or a dog chained in a back yard im guessing is jail to you??? Okay if I had money for a run in I would galdly build one but I just don't right now. Oh yea and they have no stupid vices. Plus they are very healthy!!!!!

    okay so what about riding? We train horses to carry us around on their backs for hours on the trail or jump over fences. You just seem ignorant that's all just real close minded. I can see it both ways but the way you put it is just like rude. But that's just me.

    Last thing my horses will stand under my one tree in the front pasture rather than be in the winter rain, then when I open the door the come and wait for me to let them run in. Oh yea if its summer ill leave them in the rain because they don't mind.
         
        11-08-2009, 02:10 AM
      #43
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Maverick101    
    This is my first response on this board as well....this topic was "killing" me

    IMO...it is up to the owner and what is best for HIS or HER horse. I can't say what is good for your horse, I don't know your horse, but I can say what is good for MY horses. And interestingly I do both...... I have some horses that are stalled, and some horses that are out 24/7. So I can tell you it totally depends on the horse and what is best for them at that point in their lives so to speak.

    I have a 8 stall barn and out of that 4 horses are stalled from 7 at night till 7 am. I also have 3 horses that are out 24/7 . There is the rare time that they do come in over night for various reasons.....and hey guess what, they don't break the barn down, paw, chew, or act nuts...even though they are used to being out. Why? Well first off, they have food (and as much as horses are meant to wander) a horse spends 90% of its time eating, so if they have hay...they happy, secondly they have all their buddies inside, horses are herd animals as we all know, and if their friends are in, they are quite content to just hang out, eat, and sleep.

    I do not believe in only allowing a horse a limited amount of turn-out. I think they do need to get out, stretch, graze etc. for a good amount of the day.
    But to say it is cruel to stall a horse overnight is bull. I think it is cruel to leave a horse out 24/7 that cannot handle the elements (such as cold) so, that argument can go both ways really.

    The horse the OP mentioned being housed on straight concrete is insane.....and to say a lot of stables do that is also insane......I have worked in the horse industry for many years, and have NEVER encountered straight concrete? That is sheer ignorance on the owners part, and IMO no doubt the cause of the horses health issues, not the stalling itself.


    THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!! Completely my point!!!!!!!!!!
         
        11-08-2009, 02:25 AM
      #44
    Trained
    I like full turnout, as I think it maintains the healthiest, happiest horses, with the least amount of 'boredom' behaviors (stall weaving, cribbing, windsucking, etc).

    I'm not against stalling, as when our barn here at the school I work at, is finished, the horses will be stalled at night. This is a dirt floor barn (right now, run in), and I want to get floor matts for it to reduce 'muddy' footing, as well as reduce the amount of sand they may ingest.
         
        11-08-2009, 10:27 AM
      #45
    Started
    New_image, if it was 30 degrees it wouldn't be raining, it would freeze on contact to the ground.

    Thank-you for your in site on what the weather was that day since clearly, you were with me. No, it was 28 that night, freezing rain/sleet and 30 mph gusts of wind. The day was right around 32 and pouring rain for the most part. Are you happier now, 30's and raining was simply much easier to type.

    Juneau - Masatisan's post below mine was excellent for your question.
    By stalling horses people mess with their very nature. Riding, you change his behavior for a short time but he can go back out with the herd and there won't be any difference between him and a completely untrained, unhandled horse.

    And yes, a stall is jail to something not meant to be locked up. How could you compare a cat in a house to a horse in a 10x10 box? I shouldn't even have to explain that! Size wise, a cat in a house is like a horse on a two acre pasture. A cat in a house has freedom to do as it pleases in a 1,800sq ft area. In addition a house cat was sized down from what it was suppose to be... A horse is still a horse, they came from the wild roaming vast acres of land in various weather types and they've lived that way for countless years.
    A dog on a chain, well that's your problem. Yes that's ridiculous as well but this isn't a dog forum ; ) Nor is this the topic. We have a 32x40 dog pen with a 12x12 shed for our dogs, and they are loose from dusk til dawn. I cannot say as I enjoy watching a dog chained out on a 15' line with a iddy biddy cheap dog house in the middle of the field. Just because its done doesn't make it right. Just because pit bulls live in junk yards isn't a good reason to throw a horse in a junk yard now is it? But hey at least the little 65 pound dog chained on a 15' line has a nice big circle to pace around in, which IS MORE than what is offered to an animal 10 times its size when locked in a box.

    Again, I am not saying that NO HORSE should be stalled, there are exceptions. However the majority of you defending this have perfectly healthy horses whom you've -yes trained- to be in a stall.

    I have a little paint mare here nearly all white, pink skin. She gets very cold, very easily, she gets sun burned very easy. A previous owner stalled her for these reasons, I cannot get the poor girl with in 10 feet of a barn door! I would never choose to separate her from the herd and lock her up to keep her as comfortable as a human would need. Sun screen twice during the sun light hours protects her sweet little pink nose and a rain sheet keeps her try so that she does not get cold. She has the heaviest winter blanket and if she needs it, she will get it. This is a mare YOU would stall. She does not WANT to be stalled. She didn't pick her sensitive pink skin color, it is no reason to jail her, she does more than fine with a little sun screen and a blankee. She loves to be outside, she loves to roll and play and be with her herd.
         
        11-08-2009, 01:14 PM
      #46
    Foal
    This is a mare YOU would stall.

    Well I really hope you werent saying that to me because! I would never stall a horse in the day in the summer. But im trying to just get you to agree with me but its clear your stuck with one mind set and I guess that's your choice, but it really bothers me that you can't see anything anyother way. You talk like I keep my horses (or anyone who stalls there horses) in the barn every chance I or they get and that's not how it is at all. There nothing wrong with my horses wanting to come in and eat, trained or not they are happy and enjoy eating their own hay and feed. They don't kick or scream or chew wood. They like to sleep in their bedding and not be rained on!!!!! I guess their my horses, there heathly and happy so its good to stall in winter at night!!!!!
         
        11-08-2009, 01:49 PM
      #47
    Started
    No, I wasn't saying that directly to you - just that this is a mare anyone who stalls horses would say she needs to be in a stall and she doesn't want to be stalled nor is it necessary. Its a classic example of a horse who "could have reason to be stalled" but how I get around that for her health and enjoyment.

    You say you are trying to get me to agree with you but I have pointed out at least ten reasons why I do not stall my horses/why it isn't natural or healthy in most cases/why it isn't as necessary as the world thinks. There is not reason TO stall horses, no one has given one good reason why a healthy horse should be stalled at night, during rain, when a fly looks at them or for any other reason! I'm not trying to get anyone to agree or disagree, I could care less, however its just a point and I was very interested to see if anyone could give reasons such as I gave only as to why to stall vrs. Not to stall. What does stalling do for the horse? All anyone one can say is it keeps them warm and dry and they can separate them to feed - these are for convenience and dry/warm is what humans want - neither is a good reason to lock a herd animal in solitaire confinement over night. So what does a stall benefit a horse? Whos idea was it to take a wild and free spirited herd animal used for countless years of transportation then "So its safe, warm and dry" box it up over night? Doesn't that seem just a little funny?

    To tell me you are trying to get me to see another way is quite funny. I do see it. I see the barns I've boarded at, worked at and rode at. I see the horses that bite when you walk past there stalls, I see in EVERY boarding barn stall walls lined with holes from kicking horses. I see horses built to handle the cold, not the heat, wearing winter blankets in 50 degree temps! I see horses kept indoors for days in the rainy season because it makes owners happier to see dry ponies not wet and muddy ones. I see cribbers, weavers, pacing horses, bored horses, stressed horses, dulled horses, horses that refuse to go in barns, horses that run out of stalls if you open the door, horses that were left in for so long (And yes this is true) that at the ripe old age of 19 he slipped and fell in his stall, fractured a hip and was put to sleep. Horses age in stalls. I see horses breathing in dust and ammonia and owners asking what to do about there horse with heaves. I see people lounging horses for 20 minutes before they climb on, lounging to relieve energy due to lack of turnout.

    I do see the other way, really, that's when I ask whats the point? If you stall, that's fine. But don't ask me to agree with it - I'm not asking you to agree with me, just simply stating my reasons NOT to stall and wondering why to. If you feel your horse was born into the world a stall lover, great! Doubtful but wonderful! I dare you to set up a camera in your barn and watch the whole thing threw, even in a well vented barn stalled for only 10 hours over night so turned out for a great portion of the day and health issues (Closed barn) aside, you'll be bored spitless. Turn them out, watch them graze, roll, play - Ahhhhhhhhhh :)
         
        11-08-2009, 02:12 PM
      #48
    Green Broke
    You're talking extremes there, you say all the bad and NO good.
    -Blankets in 50 degree temps, these horses are ridden correct? And if you have a horse with a winter coat, ride it, and they sweat you have a wet horse that if you throw them back out into a pasture they will get sick and cold. So you blanket them in the warm to keep them healthy.
    -I leave my horses out as much as possible, but my horses are EXTREAMLY happy to come in. They almost drag me in when it's winter and they are cold, and in the summer they want to come in out of the heat to sand with the fan cooling them off.
         
        11-08-2009, 04:13 PM
      #49
    Weanling
    So many opinions! This is so crazy, lol. But, easy guys, it's just opinions....everyone does their best to do what's right by their horses whether one person agrees or not....it's the epitomy of the horse world. Though, I still stick to my opinion. Thanks for getting into this guys =) I love reading all the responses....though, as I said, let's keep it alittle less heated ;)
         
        11-08-2009, 05:23 PM
      #50
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by New_image    

    . What does stalling do for the horse? All anyone one can say is it keeps them warm and dry and they can separate them to feed - these are for convenience and dry/warm is what humans want - neither is a good reason to lock a herd animal in solitaire confinement over night. So what does a stall benefit a horse? Whos idea was it to take a wild and free spirited herd animal used for countless years of transportation then "So its safe, warm and dry" box it up over night? Doesn't that seem just a little funny?

    To tell me you are trying to get me to see another way is quite funny. I do see it. I see the barns I've boarded at, worked at and rode at. I see the horses that bite when you walk past there stalls, I see in EVERY boarding barn stall walls lined with holes from kicking horses. I see horses built to handle the cold, not the heat, wearing winter blankets in 50 degree temps! I see horses kept indoors for days in the rainy season because it makes owners happier to see dry ponies not wet and muddy ones. I see cribbers, weavers, pacing horses, bored horses, stressed horses, dulled horses, horses that refuse to go in barns, horses that run out of stalls if you open the door, horses that were left in for so long (And yes this is true) that at the ripe old age of 19 he slipped and fell in his stall, fractured a hip and was put to sleep. Horses age in stalls. I see horses breathing in dust and ammonia and owners asking what to do about there horse with heaves. I see people lounging horses for 20 minutes before they climb on, lounging to relieve energy due to lack of turnout.

    I do see the other way, really, that's when I ask whats the point? If you stall, that's fine. But don't ask me to agree with it - I'm not asking you to agree with me, just simply stating my reasons NOT to stall and wondering why to. If you feel your horse was born into the world a stall lover, great! Doubtful but wonderful! I dare you to set up a camera in your barn and watch the whole thing threw, even in a well vented barn stalled for only 10 hours over night so turned out for a great portion of the day and health issues (Closed barn) aside, you'll be bored spitless. Turn them out, watch them graze, roll, play - Ahhhhhhhhhh :)
    Seriously? I see horses who have been housed outside all their lives, chew wood, weave, bite people and develop heaves (round bales are the culprit a lot of the time, or poor quality hay) ...get a grip...not all horses that are stalled turn in to neurotic animals....the ones with not enough turnout-yes can get such vices, but they are by no means limited to stalled horses don't fool yourself. Outside isn't perfect for all horses either, majority yes, but not all.
    I do agree it is by far better.....this is why my horses get a large amount of turnout.
    That being said I have one horse who CANNOT live outside 24/7! She would have died years ago. She is a older TB mare. She cannot handle the cold temperatures of our winters....she drops weight FAST...even w a blanket and run in shed. WE couldn't keep enough food in front of her to keep her at a healthy weight, she just stood and shivered, pretty much withering away. So she comes in at night where she is nice and warm.
    She also does not do well with fly season, she stand and stomps working up a HUGE sweat, and gets so upset she is litterly panting...so in summer she comes in for the day away from the flies, gnats, mosquitoes etc, and turn-out over night so her schedule is just reversed. This works for her, and if we didn't do this she would not be a healthy happy old girl that she is.

    Dogs were originally wild animals as well, that ran in packs, bred at will, so why do we neuter our dogs, keep them confined in our homes and yards...isn't that cruel? Shouldn't they be allowed to just be dogs?

    Also originally horses were idle during the day spending the majority of the day sleeping, and relaxing. And they did the most of their grazing eating and moving from one area to another at night....this was because they needed to be alert for predators (who generally stalked and hunted at night). It is only once the horse became domesticated did we change their pattern around to suit our needs.
    So with my horses who are out 24/7...I see them laying down sleeping during the day, they rarely graze or move around, they are pretty much idle, but once the day progresses, they do start to move more, and eat more....(their natural instinct kicks in)
    Where as my horses that are stalled over night, graze and move around from time of turnout till turn in, and they are standing by gate ready to come in when its time. Once in they do their sleeping, and relaxing.
    So to me what's the difference? The fact that they happen to be "confined" in a stall? If they weren't happy and felt confined and trapped..., they'd show it, and they are more than content to just hang out and relax.

    I don't think anyone is saying being outside is terrible. In fact most will agree (as do I ) that outside if possible is great. But I think the problem is that you say it is CRUEL. And that there is NO good reason. I gave you one, for my mare, problem is it is not of your opinion so I'm thinking it wont be good enough. I could give you another reason why my two QH's stay in over night, but I don't need to justify myself.
    I know my horses are happy, healthy, are good natured, and have no vices...so that is good enough for me

    I do have cameras in my barn, and as I say they sleep, eat that is the jest of it, no different than sleeping and eating outside....watching that for 10 hours would be just as boring wouldn't be anymore exciting just because its outside. Last time I checked horses don't run buck, and roll 10 hours during the day
         

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