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I need some feeding advice.

6K views 35 replies 12 participants last post by  luvs2ride1979 
#1 · (Edited)
Warning: long.

Despite working around horses quite a bit in my life, I have never been directly involved with their diets, and despite my research I am still new about a lot of things regarding this particularly confusing aspect of horsekeeping. Yeah I know -- Keep It Simple, Stupid...but it doesn't really help that my boarder, M, has a slight difference of opinion than mine...which, although my own opinion has been bolstered by months of reading articles and pestering people and feed store employees, hers is a result of several decades of horsekeeping. But some things still don't add up, so I am going to ask if any of you can give me some general advice.

Lilly, my new horse, is an easy keeper in every sense of the word. She is a 9 yo arabian mare, but not extremely high strung. Her previous owner had not been doing much with her, so she a little chunky at present, but in excellent condition otherwise. She was on soaked alfalfa cubes in the morning, a flake of teff hay in the afternoon, and a flake of teff in the evening along with another "ration" of cubes. I am aware that, in order to prevent ulcers and other problems, it is best for horses to have their forage and have something in their stomachs as often as possible, but is this a little much to you? She was on pasture, but no grass...and she will not have access to grass here with us until spring, then only with hand grazing. Everyone has a mineral block.

At our place, M feeds her horses twice a day...oat alfalfa cubes. They get treats like carrots and apples and such, but otherwise no forage. They are all in good condition...but two of them eat their own poop, and I don't think that is the healthiest thing in the world to do. Could they be doing this because of a lack of forage?

Anyway...it's not my place to tell her how to feed her horses, but although M is GREAT in all other aspects, if we want Lilly to continue to have hay, we're going to have to go out there every day and feed it to her ourselves (she's willing to feed at present, because we can't just take it away cold turkey from her of course). This is kind of impossible for us currently, although I'm sure we could work something out if we absolutely had to. In short...M is against feeding hay, period. She does feed the gang a sweet feed made of corn, and says her reason for this is to help them stay warm. Ideally, M wants us to take Lilly off hay completely and get her started on the grain along with the cubes.

Personally, I'm not sure I want Lilly to have grain. I don't think she needs it. First off, she's an easy keeper, like I said. Second, it will be a wee bit until she gets into a more rigourous excerise program. At the moment she will be excersised by us 3-4 times a week, possibly more depending on schedule, by way of lungeing and walks. In another week we will begin riding her, with the lungeing and walks as well. She will be a trail horse, although this summer she will be started in conditioning for endurance. But no...I don't believe she needs grain right this instant.

Also, I really want to keep her on hay. Perhaps a low-nutrient grass hay, so she can have her chew time like any normal horse. How necessary do you think this is for her? Considering how adament M is against feeding hay, I want to explore all my options...I know, ultimately it will be my decision and I will feed Lilly what I think she needs, but the issue here is I don't know for certain what to do.

What are your opinions on feeding her this corn grain stuff? I will start her on some apple cider vinegar, that I know for certain. Everything else now is just...confusing as heck. I only want the best for her, but all these conflicting opinions are driving me up the wall.

Thanks. :)

 
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#4 ·
Its unnatural for a horse to be on 100% processed diet. If someone told me they dont feed hay Id be gone in a heart beat. Horses usually eat things in a bucket alot faster than hay on the ground. What is her reasoning for no hay. Most people who limit hay are usually just cheep.

My easy keepers get

1 quart beet pulp before soaking
1/2-1 quart alfalfa pellets
2-3 quarts 12% pellets (I refuse to feed anything else besides pellets)
1/2 cup flax seed (ground)
(all soaked for 10-15 minutes)
ONCE A DAY

mare gets some glucosamine and hoof supplement


and a bale of hay per day, maybe less depending on the weather and how much grass is out there. Our bales have about 10 small flakes. I like alfalfa but I dont think any horses diet should be a majority alfalfa (cubes)especailly easy keepers and horses not working hard.

Dried Corn is almost nutriet-less, it usually comes out partially digested, or even whole, like whole oats do, in the manure. HAY is what is going to keep a horse warm, because they will always be digesting something, if you give them enough of it. Horses eat grain/corn from a bucket in a matter of minutes sometimes, so its going to get digested more quickly then hay. Talk to your vet or a horsey nutritionist, they will probably tell you something simmilar.
 
#5 ·
Horses are designed to eat around 1 percent of their body weight in forage (which means either hay pellets, beet pulp, or, ideally, hay or grass). If you feed too much grain, it can back up in their hind gut and cause ulcers and/or colic. Bottom line: You horse needs to be getting hay. If you can't find a hay with a good nutrition balance for horses (such as 2nd cutting timothy) get a higher nutrition hay, such as alfalfa, and feed a smaller amount of that mixed with a larger amount of a lower nutritive hay, such as local grass hay. It sounds like Lilly is already kind of chunky, so she may not need the calories associated with alfalfa, but in any event, I wouldn't be feeding grain, let alone giving it as the only feed.
 
#6 ·
The grain wouldn't be her only feed, it would be fed in conjunction with the cubes...that is if I decided to go that route, which I really, really don't...but hearing your opinions has made me more sure of myself. I have heard the same thing about grain and tying up...something is telling me that if we start giving her grain, bad things might happen...and I think I need to listen to my intuition.

sillybunny - you see, I thought the exact same thing -- it is the digestion of the hay that will keep them warm! Not a junkfood like sweetened corn grain...
Just curious, why do your easy keepers get beet pulp? I thought that used to put weight on horses? And why do you only feed pellets? :)

I'm not entirely sure about M's motives for not feeding hay. Yet from what I've seen, it takes Lill forever to finish a single flake...I don't think she likes the teff grass a ton, but she eats it, and eats it slowly, which is good.

I am going to call up our vet...but you two sound right on the mark. So, what about feeding her the cubes in the morn/evening, with the grass hay to chew on in the meantime? It's what her previous owner had her on and she has never had an issue. Don't get me wrong, M knows her stuff...all of her horses are over 13 and very healthy, but the no-hay thing is what confused me.
 
#7 ·
I wouldn't board somewhere they wouldn't feed hay to my horse. You're right on the mark for all the reasons to feed hay instead of grain. And I definitely wouldn't add grain to a already easy keeper's diet. Even if they are still getting cubes. I would find out why M doesn't want to feed hay. That may be the most important thing you can do to figure the situation out.
 
#9 ·
What is teff hay?

I use beet-pulp as well for my easy keepers. Beet pulp is a forage substitute basically - Fills their bellies and has a bit of energy, but not high in fat. If I need more energy/fat, I add a small amount of copra (coconut meal) - All the oils in copra provide a cool, safe alternative to the energy found in grain.

However, my horses are on grass 24/7 - At the moment they aren't getting fed anything - They have a salt lick and mineral block and that's it. I'm thinking of locking up my arab - He is way too fat and not getting enough excercise. If I do? He will get a big biscuit of meadow (grass/pasture) hay morning and night - That's it.

If I were you, I would stay away from the grain. The biggest issue with grain is NSC's - Non-Structural Carbohydrates. They are bad news - The reccomended maximum for horse feed is 12% - Most sweet feeds are up in the 30-40% range - Most 'cool' feeds are in the 20-30% range. I did my research after finding out my horse was tying up, and decided to go no grain. Beet-pulp and Copra are both low in NSC's - below the reccomended maximum, but still provide forage and energy. For a horse that isn't being excercised much, she will be better of with a lower percentage of alfalfa and a higher percentage of pasture/grass hay - Maybe keep the alfalfa cubes morning and night and give her purely pasture hay.

I would definately say NO to a barn that mandated feeds - Making me feed sweet feed and no hay would be an absolute deal breaker.
 
#10 ·
"Just curious, why do your easy keepers get beet pulp? I thought that used to put weight on horses? And why do you only feed pellets?"

My horses are easy keepers- so they dont need any attitives/sugar above pelleted feed. Around here most sweet feeds are low quality, and have alot of crap fillers in them. Its a junk food basically. Its like filling your tummy with candy bars instead of a healthy snack. Its a waste of calories. You are substituting nutrient rich calories, for nutrient poor ones. When you have an easy keeper you have less discretionary calories, this those that do get consumed have to be more nutrient rich.

As for Beet Pulp, we have my weanling vet checked, dewormed, the works, he kept getting loose stool. So I thought, maybe Ill try adding more fiber, so the cheepest, fastest way to get fiber into him (without alot of extra protein in aflafa cubes) was beet pulp. Hes been on it since. He gets more beet pulp, and my mare gets more alfalfa pellets. My mare needs more protein, to help her feet grow, she has been pulling her shoes off (along with half her hoof) monthly. My baby dosent need all that additional protein, I worry about him getting to fat or growing to fast, which cause developmental problems.
 
#12 ·
That makes sense. I was asking why you gave pellets as opposed to cubes, lol...I think I misunderstood you a bit/have issues typing coherent questions. I am certainly aware that easy keepers don't need any extra calories, and the ones they do get should be of high nutritional value, which is the main reason I am opposed to giving Lilly any.

Teff grass is relatively new in the US, with it's origins in Ethiopia. Some people around here substitute it for timothy and it's growing in popularity, in this area at least. It's actually a grain (extremely tiny grain), although it looks like ryegrass...and is pretty cheap as it can grow well even in a bad season. However our nearest grower seems to be 60+ miles away, so we are probably going to gradually switch her over to orchard grass hay or something else more readily available.

Interestingly enough when we were first "interviewing" M, she said she'd be willing to feed anything as long as we supplied it personally. I knew she didn't feed her horses hay but I wasn't going to say anything at first, as she had already agreed to give our mare the stuff and as she actually seemed a bit interested in using teff when we described it in more detail.

However yesterday evening, I gave Lilly a flake before I left and pointed this out to M, and she said something akin to, "Well alright, that's fine, you do that. That is all your thing. I don't do hay. I won't have anything to do with it." Then asked for the first time if Lilly was on grain, and I said...no, I don't believe she needs it, and she's never...to my knowledge...been on it before. And she acted kind of incredulous before showing me back to where she is keeping this huge bin of that sweet corn grain, and begins telling me about how the horses need it to keep warm, and that it is absolutely essential. And that, my friends, is when my brow quirked just a smidegon and I left with my ride feeling a mite conflicted.

Hence this barrage of very n00bish queries...

SO. I am going to talk with M, and hopefully we'll straighten some things out. I'm going to keep Lilly on the forage, and she's not getting any junkfood...except the occasional peppermint from me ;)...and if M has a problem giving it to her, then I suppose we'll have to find another place. I really, really, REALLY hope it won't come to that. But I have to know I can trust M in doing this for me when I can't be out there personally. The weird thing is, she did originally say she was fine with feeding hay, but then that comment yesterday got me puzzling.

And yes, I've too heard that arabians are prone to colic. ):

Thank you so much everyone for your input...if you have any more please type!
 
#11 ·
Roughage is VERY important to a horse. Grain is something that we have gotten into feeding, I think for ease of care and maybe even a lowered cost, although I've never calculated. One of my older horses can no longer eat hay, he chews it into a moist little ball and then spits it out in the water trough. I have to feed him a full source grain. However with horses that have healthy teeth, hay has fibrous content and nutrition that resembles the horse’s natural diet of grass. It does lack water, which is why a fresh supply of water is important.

Horses have a really long digestive tract, the roughage is what helps to push everything through. Without roughage you can run into colic issues. I have always heard that arabs can be prone to colic but that is me going on hear-say. I did own one arab that coliced pretty severely and I have 2 friends that lost arabs to colic but I've been around horses for over 20 years so that could be coincidence. I'm just mentioning that because you said your horse is an arab.

My thought is that you may need to move if the barn owner is not willing to provide adequate hay.
 
#13 ·
I have SERIOUS questions about the knowledge anyone in the horse world actually has if they do not feed hay (UNLESS the horse is on a complete feed because he is a senior, etc).
I would not even consider it, and my vet would be horrified. It is essential to the average horse to have hay or grass throughout the day for bodily and mental health.
The cubes just really wouldn't do for a healthy, normal horse. I feed cubes as a supplement.
If her horses are eating their feces, there is probably something lacking major in their diet as well.

Your horse, I must say, is obviously an super easy keeper though, so if worse comes to worse, and you can't move her and "M" will not feed hay, then she will probably be okay in the short term until you could move her, but I really wouldn't leave her at a place the refuses to feed the most essential part of a horses diet.
I do not feed hay ONLY when there is enough grass in the spring and summer.
I feed about 40lbs a day per adult horse and 2 1/2 scoops of Strategy and Triple Crown Complete, and my horses still look thin.
 
#14 ·
I am not sure about what other areas are like, but up round these parts, there is no hay to speak of. Most farmers got 1 cut (we normally get two) and it was a late, small cut.
Most boarding facilities in the area simply can't buy hay because there is none to buy. Some people have trucked in hay from 100s of miles away, but a lot of times it ends up being of very poor quality (ie ditch hay) and it is very expensive.
I am really lucky where I am at, the owners of the boarding facility have wonderful suppliers who managed to find a bunch of good quality hay that if rationed properly, should last the winter. They are still forced to feed some alfalfa/grass mix cubes and beet pulp to supplement the hay.
Just putting that out there. Horses can live without forage, but if at all possible it should be the main component in their diet. They should also be fed little and often if possible.
 
#15 ·
In our area you use beet pulp for senior horses that are underweight. But feeding sweet feed is like just giving a kid candy, there is nothing useful in it. You're better to feed senior if she is so gung-ho on grain. At least senior has hay in it. It will be pretty costly though, so I would let "M" know your horse needs hay, loves hay and will eat hay. :wink: Is she gonna pay the vet bill if she colics your horse from her frivolous ideas?
 
#16 ·
In our area you use beet pulp for senior horses that are underweight. But feeding sweet feed is like just giving a kid candy, there is nothing useful in it. You're better to feed senior if she is so gung-ho on grain. At least senior has hay in it. It will be pretty costly though, so I would let "M" know your horse needs hay, loves hay and will eat hay. :wink: Is she gonna pay the vet bill if she colics your horse from her frivolous ideas?
lol, I dun' think so. I also don't see how walking out to Lilly's paddock twice a day to supply a flake would be so difficult, if I am already physically picking it up and bringing it to her house. We would feed her ourselves but there is only one car between my mother and I, and we have weird schedules at present so we can't get out there every day, let alone even twice a day to feed. So HOPEFULLY she will agree about the whole feed the hay/no grain thing. She has been very kind and helpful about everything else, so here's knocking on wood that when I speak to her next she'll be reasonable about this. There is no shortage of hay in our area, that is for sure.
 
#17 ·
I would want her on more hay, less cubes. She should be getting 2-3% of her body weight in hay every day. You can add a vitamin supplement to her cubes to round out her vitamin and mineral needs. Those blocks really do not provide much in the way of minerals.

My horses get free choice grass hay with just 2 lbs of Alfalfa pellets daily. In their pellets I mix a vitamin, some flax, and some apple cider vinegar to make it all stick. They stay very healthy, good feet & hair, and they definitely do not eat their poo... Poo eating is usually a sign of a nutrient difiency, or serious boredom.
 
#18 ·
I would want her on more hay, less cubes. She should be getting 2-3% of her body weight in hay every day. You can add a vitamin supplement to her cubes to round out her vitamin and mineral needs. Those blocks really do not provide much in the way of minerals.

My horses get free choice grass hay with just 2 lbs of Alfalfa pellets daily. In their pellets I mix a vitamin, some flax, and some apple cider vinegar to make it all stick. They stay very healthy, good feet & hair, and they definitely do not eat their poo... Poo eating is usually a sign of a nutrient difiency, or serious boredom.
Thank you luvs2ride!! I really mean it. I was going to cut down her cubes as well...and what you are doing with your own horses seems like it would be a good fit with my mare. Which/what kind of vitamin do you use, again? And as you already know I am a big proponent of ACV. We will likely being going the ground flax route with her too.
 
#19 ·
Using grain to "warm" a horse is the biggest waste of money. Horses stay warmer with HAY. Hay takes longer to digest and creates more heat in the hind gut. Grains are processed quickly. While they will provide more calories for horses that lose weight in the winter, they will NOT make a horse "warmer"...

Email her these links.
Horse Feeding Myths and Misconceptions

"Corn and barley are sometimes favoured as winter feeds because they are mistakenly thought of as "heating feeds." If "hot" implies high energy, yes, corn and barley are "hot feeds." However, corn and barley are not "hot feeds" if "hot" implies heat production. "

Seven Feeding Myths Shattered

"MYTH #1: Horses need grain in their diets.
FACT: Horses evolved as grazing animals, and forage (pasture and/or hay) is still the basis of their dietary needs. The equine digestive system is designed to break down tough, stemmy plants and extract all the nutrition and energy they need from those materials. A great many horses get along very well on a forage-only diet; if your horse has finished growing and is only in light work, is an easy keeper, or is basically a happy pasture potato, he has no need for grain.


Because the equine digestive system is poorly designed to digest large quantities of carbohydrates, there's a limit to how much grain you can feed without risking dangerous conditions like colic and laminitis. As a rule of thumb, remember that every horse should consume between 1.5 and 3 percent of his body weight in feed every day, and at least half of that should be forage, by weight."

Myths

Myth: Horses need to eat grain.
Truth: Other than possibly vitamin E (if the horse does not get green grass or alfalfa) and selenium (if your area is selenium deficient), the only thing a horse on good quality forage needs from grain is extra calories, most of which come from starch and sugar. An intake of starch and sugar increases the risk of bone and joint problems in young growing horses and of colic, founder, and stomach ulcers in adults.

Possible origin: When the cavalry needed to carry concentrated feeds on trips across country with poor grazing, and when hard working horses in cities needed extra calories to maintain weight, the only feeds available were grains. These days we have a lot more options that are healthier than grains, such as high fiber and high fat feeds, and good vitamin E and selenium supplements.
 
#21 ·
Once again, many thanks. She does not have a computer to my knowledge but I will find a way to get her to read these articles. Who knows, they could end up benefitting her horses as well.

Edit - And I will definitely check out that company!

<33
 
#22 ·
You're more than welcome and good luck!

Oh, another article. You can print this one. It's three (web) pages long. It's a good one on the benefits of hay.
http://www.myhorse.com/health/feeds/let_em_eat_hay.aspx#top

Hay cubes are still technically a forrage product, so they're fine if she doesn't want to feed baled hay. She just needs to make sure she's feeding enough. For a 1,000 lb horse, she should be feeding 20-30 lbs a day, about 1/2 of a 50 lb bag. If her horses get too fat, tell her to cut back on the grain ;-).
 
#24 ·
#1, Feed your horse hay.. horses need their roughage, and grass is their natural food.

#2, Hay is what produces body heat to keep your horse warm, not grain. The cubes she's feeding is her horses only saving grace.

#3 Her horses eating manure shows a serious lack of substance in their diets

This lady M is crazy. If you can't/don't trust her to properly care for your horse, and you can't be there daily to care for your own horse and make sure he/she gets hay'ed, move your horse.
 
#25 ·
beet pulp isnt truely a substitute for hay cubes. beet pulp has relatively low nutrients, and usually sweetend with molasses. Beet pulp is the skin of beets, the left overs. I am almost 100% sure alfalfa (or any hay) is more nutrient rich then beet pulp.

I feel pellets vs cubes simply because cubes take longer to soak and the ones on the top of the bucket sometimes dont get enough water. even if you dont give any or enough water with pellets they will go down fine.

Holey crap 1/2 bag of cubes a day ($16 here)!! It would just be cheeper to buy a bale of hay ($2.5-5 here). I a bale would even last longer.
 
#27 ·
beet pulp isnt truely a substitute for hay cubes. beet pulp has relatively low nutrients, and usually sweetend with molasses. Beet pulp is the skin of beets, the left overs. I am almost 100% sure alfalfa (or any hay) is more nutrient rich then beet pulp.
Yup, not as high nutrient-wise, but still a suitable forage substitute of you have nothing else. I also make sure to buy beet-pulp without any molasses.
 
#28 ·
Depending on how she is worked, the percentage goes up or down - usually, for a low worked to pasture only horse, you want 1.5% of their weight in feed, and about 1% to 1.25 % in hay is ideal, according to our vet, and he is a senior prof. at the Ohio State Equine Studies program.
I would feed a complete feed, no doubt, like a senior or other complete feed if you end up going without any or much hay.
 
#29 ·
10 lbs of hay, grass hay anyway, is not enough (1% of a 1,000 lb horse). More hay is better. Horses really only need grain if they can't keep their weight on using quality hay, or they have other physical reasons (can't chew or are really hard keepers).

More recent studies by vets and independent researchers (NOT paid by the feed companies) has shown that feeding 2-3% of grass hay, timothy, or mixed hay is healthier for most horses, with minimal amounts of grain. A simple vitamin supplement can make up for any vit/min deficiencies in most hay, which would make grain not needed in any measurable amount.

A horse should be fed enough hay to be kept in good condition (feel the ribs but not see them) and kept from developing vices (wood chewing or cribbing) or ulcers. One study showed that 70% of stalled show horses have some form of ulcers. This is mostly due to restricted hay/grazing and high amounts of grain products, topped with the stress of being stalled and in training/showing. Show horses that received more turnout time and higher amounts of hay had a lower occurance of ulcers (around 25-30% if memory serves me right).

Plus we have to remember that horses are grazing animals, made to be eating large quantities of low protein, high fiber foods. Grain and most horse feeds do NOT fall in to that category... 85-95% of a horse's diet should consist of a more "natural" food source to keep the horse's gut function and mind healthy. It just makes sense.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Around here, a large bag (not sure of exact poundage, but pretty big) of alfalfa cubes is 4.50 a pop, so not that much of a difference from a bale. We are going to talk to her in person tomorrow morning in any event, so I'll update here when I know what is going to happen. Lilly will not be staying there if the boarder will continue to be foolishly obstinate about this. In fact her vet came out to float a mare's teeth while we were there and basically told her off for not feeding hay...but from what I've witnessed I don't think that's going to change her mind any. I do think her horses eat their own waste as part of boredom, because they have nothing to chew aside from healthy treats between 5:00 am and 6:00 pm.

Lilly is approx. 950 lbs as of her last weigh-in a little less than a week ago (she's 14.3 hh). For the time being I am going to keep her on her previous owner's program of primarily feeding hay along with the cubes, and I will begin to introduce ACV and eventually flax seed to the mix...I hope M doesn't have an issue with this, either. Her modern-day chubbiness is a direct result of too little excersise, and I'll adjust the rations with the vet's advice if she continues to put on weight or starts loosing too much as we begin working out more.

Oh yeah, she'll definitely get her hay...I'm not giving her another feed or grain of any sort. My mind's set on this now. She's my horse, I'm responsible for her, and M can't impose her own ways upon me. Like I said if she refuses we will have to put Lilly through another move.

Ach. So much stress and worrying already and I've been an official horseowner for all of two days.
 
#32 ·
Very true. My last stable made their own "senior feed" using beet pulp, alfalfa hay pellets, vitamins, and flax. It worked like a charm and there was no molasses or grain products that could possibly make the old guys' health worse (one had cushings and another was IR). They got their "soup" three times a day and did very well on it (all three horses had very few teeth left).
 
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