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I'm having trouble finding PSSM info/ answers. I need help...

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  • Triple crown senior a good EPSM feed
  • Ultium for pssm

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    04-12-2013, 02:44 PM
  #11
Started
Sounds like you need to add fat to his diet. EPSM horses need to have 20-25% of their calorie intake from fat and low sugar starch/carb. His muscles need to be tricked into using the fat as energy to prevent the polysaccharides being stored in their muscle, which causes the muscle pain/stiffness. Diet change results can be seen in as little as a month up to a year, just all depends on the horse. Here is my mixture at the moment for my 1100lb pinto:

1lb timothy pellets
1/2lb Triple Crown Senior
1lb Nutrena Empower Balance ration balacer
1 cup Omega Horseshine
3 scoops Cool Cal-scoop comes in bag (This combined with the Omega = 1lb fat)
1lb/1 cup soy oil
2000iU natural Vit E

The point is to create a low sugar carb/starch mixture, enough to soak up the fat where they will eat it for the fat. This may be tricky at first getting them to eat it. Add fat slowly. I started using Cool Cal to be able to use less oil, but it is more expensive. However, it seems like once they start accepting it and eating it ok, they crave it with non problem. I always keep Purina Ultium in the back of my mind to maybe use later because I had really good results on that with my other non-EPSM horses. Since your horse is stalled some of the time, you may be able to pour oil on his hay and use less in feed. You need a mixture of something to be able to get them eating 2lbs/2 cups fat per day.

Here is the diet sent to me by Dr. Beth Valentine out of Oregon State University:

EPSM (PSSM, EPSSM) DIETS
Designed by Dr. Beth Valentine with assistance from Drs. Harold (Skip) Hintz, Bob Van Saun, Don Kapper, and Kent Thompson

Goals: To provide no more than 15% total daily calories from starch and sugar, and at least 20-25% of total daily calories from fat

Forage:

Either grass or legume hay (such as alfalfa) can be fed. Alfalfa hay does not have a high enough starch content to be a concern.

Grain hays such as oat hay and barley hay with remaining seed heads should be avoided.

The amount of forage is not critical - it can be varied depending on whether the horse needs to gain or lose weight. Just do not feed less than 1% of the horse’s body weight in forage per day.
Lush spring pasture will be higher in starch and sugar than summer grass, and the amount of dietary fat may need to be increased during this time.

Vitamins and minerals:

Vitamin E: At least 1 IU vitamin E per lb of horse per day is important for all horses, especially those not on alfalfa products or green grass for much of the year. You cannot hurt a horse with extra vitamin E.

Selenium: About 1-2 mg selenium per 1000 lbs of horse per day is essential in areas that are selenium deficient. Selenium can be toxic at high levels, though, so be aware of all sources of selenium in your horse’s diet, and ask your veterinarian to have blood tested for selenium levels if there is any question of selenium deficiency or excess.

“Broad spectrum” vitamins and minerals: Horses on fat supplemented diets often will not be eating the manufacturers recommended amounts of fortified commercial concentrated feeds per day. If forage quality is good, most vitamins and minerals will be adequately supplied by forage. For horses on lesser quality forage, hard working horses, breeding horses, and growing horses, addition of a daily vitamin and mineral supplement is important.

Other supplements: Hoof supplements, joint supplements, etc. are not a problem when feeding EPSM horses.

Fat: EPSM horses need at least 1 lb of fat per 1000 lbs of horse per day.

Start with small amounts, such as 1/4 cup oil per feeding, and increase by about 1/4 cup every few days. Use the general rule that two cups of oil = 1 pint = l lb.

Treats for EPSM horses: Most EPSM horses are fine with carrots and apples in moderation. Avoid treats with grain or sugar. My horses like Kellogg’s Cracklin Oat Bran, which has about 20% calories from fat.


Specific Diets for EPSM Horses

* At the time of this writing there is no feed high enough in fat to provide the proper calorie ratios to EPSM horses without an additional fat source

In general, aim to feed no more than 5-6 lbs of any feed other than a pure forage based feed per 1000 lbs of horse per day.

Feed the minimum amount of feed in the bucket that gets the horse to eat the maximum amount of daily fat while maintaining good weight.

If it takes a small amount of something “sweet” (molasses, carrots and apples, apple juice, peppermint flavoring, a handful of oats or sweet feed, etc.) to get your horse to eat the right amount of added oil early on, this is not a problem. You can aim to decrease or eliminate this small amount of starch and sugar later.




Examples of very low starch and sugar feeds:

Alfalfa pellets
Other hay pellets
Alfalfa cubes - soak in water when adding oil
Beet pulp, low molasses content - soak in water
Complete feeds - meant to replace hay if needed
Dengie or chaff products
Chopped hay products


Examples of low starch and sugar feeds*:

*In general, feeds higher in protein and fat will be lower in starch and sugar. Ingredients such as soy hulls, beet pulp, bran, wheat brans, and wheat middlings are relatively low in starch and sugar.

Below are examples of low starch and sugar feeds, there are many others. If in doubt, contact the company and ask about starch and sugar content. Look for feeds no more than 33% starch and sugar.

If you can see grains in the product it is likely too high in starch and sugar for an EPSM horse.

Purina Strategy (14% protein – NOT 12% protein)
Nutrena Compete
Nutrena Safe Choice
Blue Seal Hunter, Demand, Vintage Gold
Senior feeds
LMF Stage 1
LMF Complete
Equi-Pro Carb-Safe
Platform horse feeds
Triple Crown Senior, Complete, Growth
Triple Crown Lite
Triple Crown Low Starch
Purina WellSolve L/S and W/C










Examples of higher fat feeds:

These are examples of feeds that allow addition of less added fat. Most companies suggest using these only as an addition to other feed. For EPSM horses, feed these alone along with good quality forage or a daily vitamin and mineral supplement:

Kent Feeds Omegatin (20% fat)
Nutrena Empower (22% fat)
Farmer’s Cooperative High Fat Low Carb (20% fat)
Moorglo (15% fat)
Rice bran, powdered (20% fat)
Buckeye Ultimate Finish (25% fat)
Nutrena Farr XTN (12% fat)
Re-Leve (about 10% fat)
Purina Ultium (12% fat)
Purina Amplify (30% fat supplement)

Calculate amounts of fat fed from these products by multiplying lbs fed per day by the percentage of fat. For example, 3 lbs of Ultimate Finish is 3 x 0.25 = 0.75 lb of fat.

Feeds with 20% or more fat can be supplemented with rice bran (20% fat) to provide additional fat. All other feeds require addition of a 100% fat source.

100% fat supplements:
Any salad type vegetable oil, such as soy, canola, corn, safflower, cottonseed, etc. Cocosoya and wheat germ oil are also fine, just more expensive.

Cool Calories dry fat product, by Milk Specialties - 800-323-5424 ext.1156, ask for Catherine Gerardi.

Cool Calories dry fat product, by Performance Horse Nutrition, Weiser, ID 208-549-2323.

Ultimate Finish 100, Buckeye Feeds
     
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    04-12-2013, 02:51 PM
  #12
Trained
Back On Track No Bow Wraps in Therapy Solutions at Schneider Saddlery

These might help with his stocking up. I have a set of them and use them anytime I've taken a horse out for a long ride that isn't quite in good enough shape to handle it. They help with the stocking up a LOT.
     
    04-12-2013, 02:56 PM
  #13
Trained
Oldhorselady read my mind
I checked Ultium. 12.4% fat,150 IU/ lb vit. E
As for low starch, timothy hay has ca 13% NSC, so you're okay with that. Adding alfalfa could be beneficial. It's lower in NSC, 11%.

So roughly, adding fat, vit E and a general vit/ min supplement could be of great help.

For him being so tired after work....of course, he has not enough fuel for his muscles due to the disease. Provide sufficient fuel and he will be stronger.
Once he gets stronger I'd consider putting him in turnout with another horse to get him moving a bit.
Oldhorselady likes this.
     
    04-12-2013, 03:14 PM
  #14
Weanling
Ill look into adding fat...

Ill look into the boots.


I'm going to have to think really hard if this is something I can do.

I cannot be at the barn 24/7 to make sure he gets exercise or turnout, or all the correct amounts of supplements, oil, and feed.
All I can do is say this is what he needs, and hopes he gets it.
He had oil in the past added to his feed, it was really messy, and it took him half the day to eat... it was a pain, it limits the times you can ride him or turn him out.

If he misses something, he could get sick again.

Last year I paid for 90 days of training, then he got sick and he had to sit for 3-4 months... so that was a huge waist of money.... I would hate to have it happen all over again.

I own a horse so I can ride... and so far that just hasn't been working out.

Now we are starting all over again with him. I just hope he is ok and stays healthy and sound. I just want to be able to ride.
     
    04-12-2013, 03:28 PM
  #15
Trained
He might not need oil, just another high fat additive, since he's already on Ultium. If you're not sure all his stuff is being fed, measure out his feed plus supplements and have it ready to dump in in little buckets with lid, or Ziploc bags, a day or two in advance. He is on daily turnout, so that seems to work.
I do understand your reasoning, you've put much money into it and want something in return. But expecting that from a living creature is tricky. It doesn't always work that way.
You know now what the problem is, you can tweak the diet relatively easy, now it's entirely up to you. If you're not willing to go the extra mile, find him a suitable home.
Oldhorselady and Roadyy like this.
     
    04-12-2013, 04:06 PM
  #16
Started
It may not be as bad as you think once you get into the groove of things. His body is clearly telling you something is lacking. It is your job as the horse's owner to give him what he needs since he can't do it for himself. We put these animals in situations to live in, perform and act that isn't natural to them. They are not machines. This horse may recover nicely from a proper diet. It pains me to think that he would be labeled as 'not worth' the effort. Oil IS messy and you do have to be a little more dedicated than the average, but it is so worth it if that is all you are dealing with. Who is to say that you would sell him and get a new horse, well trained and athletic, but has other disabilities that proove much worse? I guess if you feel you have exhausted your efforts and feel that you can not dedicate yourself, the best, most unselfish thing, is to find him another home. But please be fair, and don't sell him for something he is not so he can find someone to take the time to care for him as he needs. Even the perfect horse will eventually have something go wrong...injury, old age....
     
    04-12-2013, 04:49 PM
  #17
Weanling
Hey now I never said he wasn't worth it....

All I said was based on his needs, my needs and wants, and having to board I'm not sure if it is possible.

I get to the barn thurs-sun.

If I could find something other than oil that might work.

Vitamin E has to be kept properly or it will loose its value, therefore preparing it a day in advance isnt bad, but I don't think it would work making it sun to be used on wed.

I have looked, come winter there is no where to go that has an indoor that can garentee daily turn out plus feeds supplements.
I already pay $400 a month for board through winter.

I'm paying $600 a month for where he is now which is just fantastic because my trainer works with him daily. I like my trainer, she is very knowledgable and does not use training gadgets, she apples a lot of natural horsemanship to her training.

I'm buying his grain because they do not feed it normally, I'm paying another $100 every 50 days for supplements.

I only paid $3500 for him, but have paid more than that already in vets bills just from the PSSM. Lol it's to the point that the vet just kept my credit card number on file and I told her don't even bother calling, just go ahead and charge it and send me the bill. (I was 7 months pregnant and working full time so I could not always be there).

So it's not about the money. It's about what will be best for my horse. I watched him near death and I know if he isn't cared for properly or someone messes up that can happen all over again!

So I'm trying, but it's not a simple as just switching his food around a little. It's a whole 'nother lifestyle.

So it goes beyond not just being able to ride him.

And no, I would not be selling him. If I couldn't keep him I would find him a suitable home, where he could come back to me if it would stop working out. And I would fully disclose his health issues, and deafness.


Thanks for all the help.
     
    04-12-2013, 05:37 PM
  #18
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopin N Paint    
I'm paying $600 a month for where he is now which is just fantastic because my trainer works with him daily. I like my trainer, she is very knowledgable and does not use training gadgets, she apples a lot of natural horsemanship to her training.

I'm buying his grain because they do not feed it normally, I'm paying another $100 every 50 days for supplements.
Ok, based on what you're saying here, I'd try feeding him Ultium, and if he needs more fat, then maybe add the Amplify fat supplement on top of the other feeds, in place of a liquid oil. What other supplements are you feeding that's costing you $2/day? Sometimes with these metabolic horses, less is more with supplementation.

Once you get him on an even keel, you may not continue to have all the problems. If you find you can't keep him stable, then either giving him away or having him put down is the kindest thing you could do. It's tough!
     
    04-12-2013, 05:59 PM
  #19
Trained
I second the Amplify on top of the Ultium. For the E, put it in an extra little bag, or check out Smartpac, they might have it pre- packaged in daily portions.
I'd also look for pasture board or paddock with run-in shed. Blanket him in winter to not have to deal with excessive coat. It would take away the need of daily exercise. Or think about a half lease who can help out on the days you can't.
A lot is possible, you just have to want and find it.
     
    04-12-2013, 06:14 PM
  #20
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by deserthorsewoman    
I second the Amplify on top of the Ultium. For the E, put it in an extra little bag, or check out Smartpac, they might have it pre- packaged in daily portions.
I'd also look for pasture board or paddock with run-in shed. Blanket him in winter to not have to deal with excessive coat. It would take away the need of daily exercise. Or think about a half lease who can help out on the days you can't.
A lot is possible, you just have to want and find it.
Ideally maybe my trainer will just house him through the winter... I'm looking up amplify right now!

So adding fat should help him look a little better too? I feel bad, he looks in such poor condition to me!

Hopefully everything works out and I'm worried about nothin!
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