Laminitis?!! What?? - Page 2
   

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Laminitis?!! What??

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  • Laminitis keeps coming back
  • Can you rub the soles of a horse hoof to help with laminitis

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    11-21-2009, 03:35 AM
  #11
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
Hi,

Can you send us some hoof pics? A variety of angles - front- & side-on from near ground level, sole straight on & sighting down from heel to toe is best.

Diet is the no. 1 consideration for avoiding or preventing further laminitic attacks which can lead to founder(the mechanical progression). I would avoid grain, sweetened feed, and ensure he's getting a good supplement & perhaps extra magnesium too(I'd do a diet analysis to work it out). What is his diet & management regime now?

If the horse is kept bare & trimmed frequently(enough to *keep* the feet in good shape, rather than allow them to overgrow before trimming) & well in order to relieve the disconnected walls from ground pressure, if there is sufficient sole, that should alleviate the discomfort & enable the development of a healthy foot. BUT generally the sole is also rather flat & thin by the time the problem is diagnosed(not to mention generally weak heels), and while relieving the walls is necessary to allow strong growth to begin, this causes the horse to take even more pressure on his soles. He may therefore require padding to protect his sensitive soles & allow him to exercise comfortably. The more exercise the better, but to do it without protection may lead to stone bruises & abscesses.

Hoofrehab.com & safergrass.org are 2 great resources for learning about hoof function & effects of laminitis & the likes. Among many other good sites & resources. I'd advise you do your homework & learn as much as possible about it, so you can make informed decisions & get an idea of how knowledgeable & good, bad or otherwise your 'experts' of choice(farrier, etc) are doing.
will work on getting pictures asap..
I'll describe his living situation:
He lives in a stall-type situation and is turned out (generally not for more than 15 minutes unfortunately because of the particular situation we're in..) at least once daily. He generally wears his hoof boots while he is in his stall, being ridden, or walking on hard ground, and I take them off during grooming and turnout and short walks around the ranch (mostly on grass, small parts on gravel paths) I've been taking him on to work on his adjusting to barefoot. He is lunged about half of the time with the boots, and half without. Lately he has been lunged on average three or four times a week (sometimes daily, sometimes less, all depending on what's going on..I try to get him moving as much as I can but sometimes things are hectic) and ridden (extremely lightly because I'm recovering from a really long term injury) usually once or twice a week.
He's a little bit of a hard keeper. He has been eating oat hay morning and night (other options available are alfalfa and grass) and has been eating..I think something like 10 cups (??? I'm really not sure, I need to check on that and get it in pounds when I go out tomorrow) of LMF senior (even though he isn't a senior, my trainer recommended it for hard keepers) and the information about it is here: LMF SENIOR :: LMF Feeds - LMF Horse Feeds - the finest feeds for your horses health
Along with grand hoof supplement with msm and probios
I'm not sure what to do about the grain issue since he is a pretty hard keeper..any recommendations on what I can do about that?

I know his living situation at the moment isn't the best it could be but I am very limited. We're at the only boarding stable in the area (at least the only one run by sane people) and there are many things I can't change about it as much as I'd like to..
     
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    11-21-2009, 03:46 AM
  #12
Started
**a small note, upon further reading at the link I posted about the grain he's been eating, I noticed this: http://cp30.heritagewebdesign.com/~lmffeeds/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products _id=21
Does that look like it could be a good option for him? I'm not sure it would even be available here, but I could find out..
     
    11-21-2009, 03:59 AM
  #13
Started
Oh, and I forgot a few things:
-he is still just slightly underweight. He was pretty underweight when I brought him home, and I've made sure to spread out his weight gain so as to not shock his system. At the moment he's at the point right before the correct weight.

-he is both turned out and lunged in sand
     
    11-21-2009, 07:14 PM
  #14
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyxpony    
he lives in a stall-type situation and is turned out (generally not for more than 15 minutes unfortunately because of the particular situation we're in..) at least once daily.
He desperately needs a HECK of a lot more turnout & exercise! I appreciate it sounds like you're in a predicament with the 'particular situation' but it's incredibly unhealthy(not to mention not very nice) to keep a horse in a little box for large amounts of time, let alone what basically amounts to 24/7. I hope you already understand this & it is a very short-term, emergency type situation that will be changed ASAP. Get him out, pref. 24/7 in a paddock with other horses. At very least find somewhere that he'll get 12 hours or so turnout per day. If you can't do this yet, you need to walk, ride or otherwise exercise him for many hours, not minutes per day in the meantime.

Quote:
he generally wears his hoof boots while he is in his stall, being ridden, or walking on hard ground, and I take them off during grooming and turnout and short walks around the ranch (mostly on grass, small parts on gravel paths) I've been taking him on to work on his adjusting to barefoot.

Is he that uncomfortable on his feet, that he needs boots in his stall?? That to me says that he is in a very bad way & needs URGENT help & management changes. If he's not sore, don't boot him when he doesn't need it. What does/doesn't he cope with? Have you noticed whether he lands toe- or heel-first? As for 'adjusting to bare', forget that for now. He's not managed in such a way as to allow his feet to grow strong. Keep him protected & comfortable & give him as much exercise as possible for a start. With so little exercise, you would expect it likely his feet would go to pot even if they were healthy to begin with. But if they're already severely compromised, they're definitely in no fit state to cope unprotected with gravel or other hard surfaces. Forcing him to exercise on tender feet is not only not nice for him, but the potential for stone bruises/abscesses is high and he will also not be moving correctly, so will potentially be doing himself more damage.

Quote:
he's a little bit of a hard keeper. He has been eating oat hay morning and night (other options available are alfalfa and grass) and has been eating..I think something like 10 cups

I would replace the oaten hay(well, straw) with grass hay. Give him as much as he wants, free choice – in a hay net to save wastage – rather than just morning & night. Depending on what else he gets, a couple of biscuits of lucerne/alfalfa would probably be appropriate too. It is high in protein. I would ditch the senior feed, as it is grain based & sweetened. It's far from necessary to feed grain for weight gain. On the contrary, it may be the excess sugar & starch causing weight probs. The other feed you suggested sounds better, as it doesn't include those ingredients. It's unclear how often he gets a meal per day, but little & often is best, and if he were fed his 10 cup ration over only 1-3 meals per day, this may have contributed to laminitis, as well as being rather wasteful as far as how much he could digest. If he is not keeping weight on, aside from more & better hay being helpful, I'd try the same quantity of 'hard feed' but over a few more feeds per day.
     
    11-21-2009, 10:22 PM
  #15
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by barefoothooves    
Metal shoes, (bars and pads included) do not help much. They suspend the hoof by the very structure tha is compromised, and often let the sole drop even farther. The rigid support of the bar shoe does not allow adequate the hoof to function properly, in spite of it's "Support", so avoid it.

There are new materials available to help a foundered horse recover quicker, and you should talk to your hoof care provider. Vets aren't always up to date on the latest tools, by the way. They are busy keeping up with whole body science, and hoof care providers are more apt to know about the latest stuff for hooves. I say this because I inform vets of new things all the time and they just can't keep up with the technology or have no experience with it like a farrier/trimmer would. Vets are great, but it takes the vet AND the hoof care provider working as a team.

I don't see this as a death sentence, just a set back. Best wishes for you and your horse.
Oh I have to agree sooo much with this. I just came from a meeting put on by our local vet and they had an out of town surgeon as a guest speaker. There was some really interesting stuff, but everyone there basically saw laminitis as a terrible, awful thing - the worst basically. Now the guest surgeon has more to deal with in his situations, but even our local vet is still stuck on bar shoes and that if caught early enough, the horse could probably be nursed along to a point. But soooo negative. I couldn't believe it. I so wanted to scream out that vets aren't farriers and that shoes are the answer to everything and definitely not to laminitis.

To the OP, you have some great information already on this thread. Keep reading and review your diet and hoof care. Keep a journal, take lots of pictures to go with your journal. Be diligent.

And also, I have had a lot of people tell me that this or that horse had laminitis at a point in the past because they see a horizontal ripple in the wall. That doesn't automatically mean there was laminitis, but somehow a change in the horse's environment, diet, stress or whatever; And past laminitis doesn't mean your horse will necessarily have it again. But change is necessary to eliminate the cause, or laminitis will rear it's ugly head again. This is the biggest setback I have heard about -- that people don't change; whatever it is stays the same, so the result (laminitis) keeps coming back.

Yes, pictures would be nice too.

Good luck.
     
    11-21-2009, 11:29 PM
  #16
Started
Got a vet out today..she took x-rays and she said that his laminitis is not too severe with only very slight rotation. From my description she said what probably happened was that it was brought on by pulling his shoes, and shortly after that was the worst point of it. From there it started slowly getting better, and has improved quite a bit since then.

She says that we can keep him on the oat hay he is eating because it isn't very rich, but if we start getting richer bales in we should switch to grass. She said to give him half of the grain that he's getting now, and half stabilized rice bran. He will need to get the shoes back because of the shape of his soles (very flat).
She says to have him rest for awhile. He will be on two grams of bute per day for five days, then one gram for a week and we'll see after that. During this time, she says that the most exercise he should have is just being lead around minimally and can only be turned out to roll but not allowed to run.
     
    11-22-2009, 07:10 AM
  #17
Started
Pony,
Well, every now and again a subject comes up - in this case laminitis - the owner needs some advice and lo and behold back advice comes in buckets. Well done everyone - there is more on this thread about treatment than you will find in a text book. I have learned a lot.

At home, all I get usually is nagging about the risk of laminitis.

But I suppose this is what this Horse Forum is all about - little about horses is new - but we all have to learn more from eachother about what is already known about horse care and training.

Pony, I hope you'll keep us posted as to how you get on.

Barry G
     
    11-22-2009, 08:05 PM
  #18
Started
Thank you very much barry =) I definitely will post updates
     
    11-23-2009, 12:18 AM
  #19
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyxpony    
got a vet out today..she took x-rays and she said that his laminitis is not too severe with only very slight rotation. From my description she said what probably happened was that it was brought on by pulling his shoes,
Great that there's so far little rotation. Did she say or show how high or otherwise the coffin bone was in the capsule - how much sole he has?

I differentiate between lami & founder & would describe your horse as foundered, the coffin bone being already disconnected & rotated or dropped down in the capsule. This is commonly the mechanical progression of laminitis, which is inflammation & subsequent weakening of the laminae which connect horn to foot. Especially if he already has foundered, it's not likely shoe pulling, even extremely rough & ready treatment would have caused anything, but it may have exacerbated an already sensitive situation.

Quote:
but if we start getting richer bales in we should switch to grass. She said to give him half of the grain that he's getting now, and half stabilized rice bran. He will need to get the shoes back because of the shape of his soles (very flat)....
That the most exercise he should have is just being lead around minimally and can only be turned out to roll but not allowed to run.
The above shows the contrasts between some methods & recent research. Again I emphasise doing your own research so you can make up your own mind on what approaches & 'experts' you will heed. Of course you should not just take my word for it, as some anonymous hoof care practitioner, but I don't think it's any better to blindly trust some other 'experts' opinion either. Rather learn the principles & the pros & cons of each, to make an informed decision either way. So anyway....

I would look further into his diet. Safergrass.org is one good source of info on feeding lami-prone horses, as is FeedXL.com & Pete Ramey hoof care heals founder in horse’s navicular disease farrier I wouldn't be feeding him on any grain or sweet feed at all. If he needs more beans or weight, there are healthy alternatives for energy.

I disagree totally that conventional shoes will be helpful for this problem, *especially* as he already has very dropped, thin soles. Peripherally loading the foot will effectively hang the horse by his walls, which are already disconnected & not coping with the amount of strain they're already under. They need to be relieved, not further loaded. He will however need support & protection for them though, and I would advise boots and something like Sole Guard to allow the bottom of his feet to *comfortably* take a supporting role as they're meant to, for proper hoof function & therefore begin healing.

Exercise is incredibly important for a horse's health, soundness & rehab & generally speaking, the more the better. Also the more exercise = faster growth, so quicker healing. BUT I don't agree with forcing a horse who is in pain to exercise - not generally helpful, let alone fair. So no. 1 priority would be getting him comfortable, well trimmed & protecting his sensitive feet so that he can do it happily & without further injury thru his thin soles.
     
    11-23-2009, 02:16 AM
  #20
Weanling
Basically I've nothing to add. All that I would like to say has been said. And probably from people with much more experience than I. I did want to add this link to a video from youtube though. I thought this horse had laminitis but it had navicular. Yet I've read of lots of case studies form a few sites where horses recovered from laminitis while staying on a barefoot trim.

It makes me cringe up inside and wanna cry everytime I see that video. There's a part two too.
     

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