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Laminitis?!! What??

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  • Cannon bone rotation
  • Horse with lamanitis hated to be touched at the coronet band

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    12-15-2009, 02:27 PM
  #21
Foal
Whether the horse can come back from Laminitis or Founder relates to how much if any rotation has occurred in the cannon bone. Usually less than 5 degrees of rotation can be dealt with. Usually more cannot.

Be prepared for some ugly stuff--usually trimming off most or all of the front of the hoof and shoeing backward--the worst case.

Good Luck.
     
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    12-15-2009, 02:44 PM
  #22
Banned
Glad you had the vet out and got a definite answer on what is going on.


Just for the record, just because the previous owner had shoes no the horse does not mean they were hiding something.
     
    12-15-2009, 04:57 PM
  #23
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5cuetrain    
Whether the horse can come back from Laminitis or Founder relates to how much if any rotation has occurred in the cannon bone. Usually less than 5 degrees of rotation can be dealt with. Usually more cannot.

Be prepared for some ugly stuff--usually trimming off most or all of the front of the hoof and shoeing backward--the worst case.

Good Luck.

Sorry but I have to disagree with this. I know of a lot of horses with serious rotation that have recovered. I own one such horse. Long standing founder with 17 degrees in one foot and 23 in the other and she's now pretty much 100% sound and back in light work without any problems. I have reason to believe (based on descriptions) that her bones had prolapsed the soles early in the episode before I got her. Her bones are demineralized pretty bad but I maintain her with a trim that works for her, SmartControl IR, and Vitex berry. I can't remember the last time she needed a gram of bute. I've used Epona shoeing for her, and Equicasts. Both are beneficial and work fine.

Diet Diet Diet is crucial. This horse should not be on ANY grain at all. Hay should have a 10% or lower NSC level. You can feed unmolassed soaked beet pulp instead of grain, and for extra calories.

Use the boots plus pads inside to make the horse more comfortable for light walking on soft, supportive surfaces to stimulate circulation in the foot. Don't ever force exercise, but make the horse comfortable and give him a good place to exercise freely if he wants to.

My foundered mare is stalled 12 hours a day because our winters here are brutal, and she's fine. I don't believe they need 24/7 turnout, but at least 12 hours is optimal.

Lots more to post but I have to trim horses now. Will try to check in tomorrow and post more.
     
    12-15-2009, 06:59 PM
  #24
Started
I've followed the vet's instruction and Kainne is doing much better. He is wearing shoes and is completely off of bute now, finally moving without any signs of pain. The farrier was also able to take off a lot more toe with the shoes than he would have without. He's slowly readjusting to normal life, being freely turned out to run as he pleases and very light lunging. I'm trying to take it slow and let him decide when he's ready for things. The inflammation has gone way down- very soft digital pulse.
I definitely thank the shoes for this. I know it's very controversial, but I'm trying to do what I feel is best for him, and what will get him (and keep him) out of pain asap. As soon as those shoes were on him you could see the relief, and it's great to see that. He's very obviously much happier.
Overall I feel that the vet's ideas are working in this particular situation, and I'm very thankful for that. I can't wait to get back on track with riding and working him as usual.

Here are the x rays from when the vet first came out, if anyone is curious:

     
    12-15-2009, 07:12 PM
  #25
Started
*also, a note about grain: he is very slowly being switched to minimal grain, but it's tough. For one thing, he has an extremely sensitive system, and any change at all gives him the runs. I've been able to get him to two and a half pounds grain, one half pound rice bran. Struggling to fix this. He's also lost weight since winter started, even though he's been blanketed a lot more than I'd usually like to..but eh. So this is a very slow process. I'm trying to increase his overall ration and give less grain both at the same time. We're getting there, I've just got to be very patient.
     
    12-15-2009, 09:11 PM
  #26
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5cuetrain    
Whether the horse can come back from Laminitis or Founder relates to how much if any rotation has occurred in the cannon bone. Usually less than 5 degrees of rotation can be dealt with. Usually more cannot.

Be prepared for some ugly stuff--usually trimming off most or all of the front of the hoof and shoeing backward--the worst case.
Have to thoroughly disagree with the above. Altho I realise this is conventionally the outlook & treatment. There have been a lot of studies, tests, trials, etc in recent years to give people a much better idea of how horse's hooves function and the factors that effect them, which have led to entirely different prognosis & treatment. Depending on bone loss, age & other factors, of course it is not possible to rehabilitate every animal, but with the right treatment, the vast majority are redeemable, even with high degrees of rotation & sole penetration. I would have to say keep learning & keep looking for more educated professionals to help if the ones you consult give you the above.

I am also not just going on theory(not that there's a shortage of that & other examples), but speaking from personal experience, as it was a 'last ditch'(after much money, effort & heartache spent on conventional treatments) attempt to save my donkey, who had close to 30 degrees(!) rotation and the tips of his coffin bones protruding through his soles that got me into this game in the first place. I was able to rehabilitate him to a good level of comfort(he was 24yo when I started) and have since successfully rehabbed quite a number of 'lost causes' & 'hopeless cases' since.
     
    12-15-2009, 09:57 PM
  #27
Trained
Hi,
Yep, you can see from the xrays they have little if any rotation, but the bones have 'sunk' extremely low in the capsule and the horse is therefore very thin soled. It also shows that laminae are quite thick - separated but likely filled with lamellar wedge - between bone & wall. The tip of the toe & breakover is therefore a fair bit forward of where it should be.

I've attached one of your xrays which I've marked to point it out to you & show where I'd be bevelling/rolling the toe back to. The yellow striped lines show the thicken lamellar material. The blue line shows approximately where I'd bevel the toe. The red lines, at the top of the straight section of P3 & at the coronet band, show how much the foot has 'sunk', as they should be roughly lined up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyxpony    
the farrier was also able to take off a lot more toe with the shoes than he would have without.
Why is that, that he feels he couldn't remove enough toe when he was bare? Especially if the horse is now shod, if you haven't already, please consider filling the soles with 'Sole Guard' or some other form of padding, so the horse isn't hanging by disconnected walls and his soles & frogs get *comfortable* ground support, so that they may begin to grow thick & allow the coffin bone to begin to raise back up in the capsule.

Quote:
I definitely thank the shoes for this. I know it's very controversial, but I'm trying to do what I feel is best for him, and what will get him (and keep him) out of pain asap.
Yep, I may not agree with the approach you've taken, but all you can do is educate yourself as best you're able & do the best with the knowledge you have at the time. Good for you. Just make sure you stay open minded & keep learning all you can.

Quote:
as soon as those shoes were on him you could see the relief, and it's great to see that. He's very obviously much happier.
Yes, raising thin soles from ground pressure does tend to relieve their pain. But as it doesn't allow the hooves to function correctly or address the cause, it is generally a palliative and temporary effect.

Regarding his diet, it's likely the grain that is at least part cause of his 'sensitive' system and weight issues, as previously explained, so great that you're cutting back. The sooner you're able to remove it from the equation the sooner his system will be able to start getting healthy.

I wish you & your boy the best!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg untitled.JPG (9.5 KB, 86 views)
     
    12-15-2009, 10:24 PM
  #28
Weanling
OH, I just hate to hear about taking so much toe off that shoes offer relief, because that often means the sole was over thinned, and the only way to relieve is to lift it off the ground. OUCH, and that will likely slow any real rehab, though it may look better to you, over shortening the toe instead of just relieving the breakover will not get him any better.

I do agree you have to do what your knowledge and available professional help can provide, but I wholheartedly disagree with shortening the toes on this horse when I see the x-rays. He simply needs the walls relieved and some cushion to protect his already overworked sole.

I hope I'm wrong and that your horse heals quickly. I've seen much worse *rotation* heal to a level of being comfortable without boots within months, but once you start whacking off toes, you are going to see not only slower progress, but perhaps more setbacks like bruising and abscessing. That is a very traditional method, but I it doesn't do well in my experience.

I strongly suggest that you follow Loosie's advice and ask for some Equipack CS gel or even tape some firm foam pads to his feet so he won't be as apt to bruise and to support that sole some.

Good for you on scaling back the grain! Perhaps if you up his hay a little as you do so, he won't scour as bad on you. Add some pro-biotics to help his gut flora and that may eliminate his runs from the diet change.

Good luck, I know you are providing the best care you can, even if I don't agree with the pros you have to use , you, as an owner, are being responsible with the situation and making the best change of all-the diet.
     
    12-15-2009, 11:18 PM
  #29
Started
I believe the farrier took off about this much toe:

As a rough guess. I can try to get a picture if I can get myself to remember.
It didn't seem like too much to me. He didn't appear to be at all sore or anything..
     
    12-16-2009, 01:13 AM
  #30
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by barefoothooves    
OH, I just hate to hear about taking so much toe off that shoes offer relief, because that often means the sole was over thinned,
I forgot to mention anything about that type of 'shortening' tho I meant to & was dearly hoping that's not what she meant - perhaps why I forgot to mention... But it seems from the pic rocky has just sent, the farrier didn't touch the sole, only 'rolled' the wall, much as I was trying to explain, which is great. I don't get why he felt he couldn't do it without shoes tho.
     

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