Laminitis?!! What?? - Page 4
   

       The Horse Forum > Keeping and Caring for Horses > Horse Health

Laminitis?!! What??

This is a discussion on Laminitis?!! What?? within the Horse Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category
  • Donkey laminitis radiographs
  • Max e glo laminitis

Like Tree1Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    12-16-2009, 01:19 AM
  #31
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
I forgot to mention anything about that type of 'shortening' tho I meant to & was dearly hoping that's not what she meant - perhaps why I forgot to mention... But it seems from the pic rocky has just sent, the farrier didn't touch the sole, only 'rolled' the wall, much as I was trying to explain, which is great. I don't get why he felt he couldn't do it without shoes tho.
he said he could do it, just not quite as much. I think he wanted to be able to cut it as far as he could without causing damage, and if he was barefoot that part of his hoof would get worn a little bit further?
That's what I assume..
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    12-16-2009, 10:14 AM
  #32
Foal
From looking at that radiograph, the horse has (had?) a LOT of toe to come off. I mean a LOT. You can definitely get the toe back without thinning the anterior sole. And I agree that thinning the sole would be detrimental. But there are other ways to get the toe back.

2 1/2 lbs of grain is also a LOT. But here's another thing I thought about - is the horse for sure insulin resistant? Has he been blood tested? If not, that should be step 1. Laminitis and subsequent rotation do not have to be metabolic. It can be mechanical as well. If the horse is a hard keeper and losing weight, I'd dig deeper to find out the cause of the laminitis and rotation. I know earlier I said NO grain but I was in a hurry and didn't have time to read as thoroughly as I should.

But still 2 1/2 lbs. Of a commercial sweet feed is a lot for any horse. Even my hardest hard keeper doesn't get that.

You have to be very careful with rice bran because not all of them are safe for metabolic horses. Some have an NSC as high as 40%. Some as low as 12%. The Seminole one is great, followed by Manna Pro Max-E Glo. The others are pretty high from the research I did.

IF this horse has an insulin resistance problem, you'll never get the horse sound until you stop the grain completely and get him switched to safer feeds. What brand of Rice bran are you using?
     
    12-16-2009, 06:53 PM
  #33
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyxpony    
cut it as far as he could without causing damage, and if he was barefoot that part of his hoof would get worn a little bit further?
The hoof wall is primarily to protect the interior of the hoof from impact - rock kicking, etc. I attached another doctored xray to show where the sensitive structures - the corium lies. Bevelling the bottom of the wall in that way isn't going to reduce the protection to the corium. Thinning the walls further up or excessively, as is often done with flared feet, is I believe potentially problematic, as that does reduce the protection the walls provide.

The walls also of course aid in support of the horse. But when the walls are forced to support the entire weight & impact of the animal such as with long walls or shoes(rather than born over the entire surface of the foot, the interior of the hoof, and consequently the whole horse, is effectively hanging by the laminae. This tends to lead to 'sinking' & other damage. When the laminae are damaged they are in no shape to support anything anyway.

Relieving the damaged walls from impact force is imperative IME & bevelling the toe back into the laminae - effectively where breakover should be if the hoof was healthy - is the way to do it. *Assuming the causes(prop dietary) of the laminitis are treated*(& I agree to do this ASAP... did I mention safergrass.org for dietary info?) it will allow a healthy wall to begin to grow down, a healthy, thick sole to grow without damage from unhealthy force. Therefore, taking & keeping the toe & other disconnected wall back is right and getting worn down further(wall, not sole) will not hurt in the least - in fact will probably also work in the horse's favour, as will the exercise that leads to it. Using conventional shoes which are nailed to the walls puts further pressure on them, allows them to overgrow and prevents the sole & frog from taking an active part in support, as it is meant to. Not to mention this horse would benefit from little & often trimming(say every week or 2) - or lots of wear - and I'm guessing you're not going to get the farrier out to trim & reset that frequently.

Whether you're shoeing or not, the thin & sensitive soles desperately need to take a big role in support. For aiding the relief of the walls, but also to grow strong & thick. The only way they can do that is with use - just like growing callouses, the more use, the more protective growth is put out. That is why hoof growth is more accurately measured in miles than time. A regular domestic pleasure hack may take a year or more to grow an entire hoof out, whereas a barefoot endurance horse may only take 4 months or so.

Whether you're shoeing or not, until they grow strong, the thin & sensitive soles desperately need protection & support in order to fulfill their role in comfort and without risk of further damage. I would suggest using something like Vettec Sole Guard, with or without shoes, or using pads in boots or such. Once the feet become healthy & strong, you may need little if any protection if bare, but I would still advise sole guard or such if shod, to prevent the raised soles & frogs from falling out of use & therefore becoming weak again.

Anyway, just some more info to.... probably add to your confusion, but hopefully give you some more food for thought.

Merry xmas & I hope you & your horse have a better new year!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg untitled2.JPG (9.1 KB, 77 views)
     
    12-17-2009, 12:55 PM
  #34
Foal
Lots of data for sure. Just as a clarification-- coming back means that they are sound and can work for a living. I am sure that with more rotation they can be pastured and such. Also with more rotation are we sure that the horse is not in pain?? For the rest of their lives??
     
    12-17-2009, 09:25 PM
  #35
Weanling
Once the hoof wall is able to grow down, firmly and properly reattatched, the pain should not be there anymore, as the walls would once again be supporting some weight, the sole will thicken again, and the hoof will look normal again, and lameness should be completely gone.

UNLESS, the same triggers are there..poor diet, impoper trimming, that combine to keep the horse in a perpetual stage of chronic laminitis, or continual flaring, or excess sole pressure. Then, yes, there would be pain as long as that situation continues. But, it's quite possible, even with severe rotation to completly rehab a foundered horse, if diet and exercise are balanced along with the trims. There are some horses that simply cannot recover, usually from complications from whatever led to their laminitis in the first place, but most should be able to make a complete recovery with the correct care, and generally speaking, within a year, on average.
     
    12-18-2009, 12:28 AM
  #36
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5cuetrain    
Lots of data for sure. Just as a clarification-- coming back means that they are sound and can work for a living. I am sure that with more rotation they can be pastured and such. Also with more rotation are we sure that the horse is not in pain?? For the rest of their lives??
Rotation can be corrected. Even with serious rotation, the vast majority of horses can become sound with the right treatment & management - not just 'pasture sound'. What appears to be the exception is the occasional horse who has had ongoing severe founder long term and has lost too much bone, or P3 has become drastically 'remodelled' from the damage. While you can still generally correct the rotation & sinking in these horses too, sometimes they are too damaged to even become 'paddock sound'. And yes, I agree with focussing on quality(of life) over quantity, so if a horse can't be made comfortable in the paddock at least, I don't think it's fair to keep the beast suffering.
     
    12-18-2009, 12:47 PM
  #37
Foal
Been dealing with these kinds of things for lots of years--probably too many for sure. Dealt with lots of great vets and great farriers.

Keep the focus on whats best for the animal--can they be a horse again or not. One year of pain to recover is a lot to ask. I don't think any rotation over 5 degrees can be corrected back to 100%. How to determine the percentage of recovery 50%? 70%? Is subjective at best at least I havn't met a professional who will hazzard a guess at that for sure.

Most horses seem to be more comfortable and happy with a job to do. They respond to it and make it a part of their lives--kind of like us. I've had many of old girls and boys who wanted to work at 30 years old and didn't like retirement one bit. Some do.
     
    12-18-2009, 04:24 PM
  #38
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5cuetrain    
I don't think any rotation over 5 degrees can be corrected back to 100%.

From all the research I've been gathering it has been shown time and again that's it's very possible. Check out this link and have a look at the radiographs. New Page 15

It shouldn't take a year of pain for the hoof to grow in. There is a possibility of pain to the hoof while it's on rocks and gravel at the beginning. But that's because it needs to grow to an adequate thicness and shape before it'll be the proper gravel cruncher it can be. So avoid rocks at first if it causes toe walking, unless you buy hoof boots. And the way to get proper hoof growth is with heel first landings. Without heel first landings the hoof can't grow properly like it should.

I am talking about a barefoot trim though. Check it out. There's been lots of studies showing experienced people healing hooves using a proper trim. I've also read a few stories of people saving horses with hoof problems from the slaughterhouse. They would take them home and use a trim that allowed them to recover.
     
    12-18-2009, 10:37 PM
  #39
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5cuetrain    
One year of pain to recover is a lot to ask. I don't think any rotation over 5 degrees can be corrected back to 100%. How to determine the percentage of recovery 50%? 70%? Is subjective at best
I agree that I allowing a horse to be in pain for anything like long term, let alone a year is not acceptable. But with the right treatment & right level of protection(eg boots, pads), they can generally be made comfortable pretty quickly.

I also agree that it was an error for me to say anything about 'vast majorities', as there's no real way of knowing that. Especially given that agreement tho, I'm interested to know how you have come to think any rotation over 5 degrees is incurable? That is obviously incorrect to me, even just from personal experience. Perhaps it's that you have only experienced conventional type treatments? Perhaps, as much of the info, research, testing, which has led to approaches such as I use are quite recent(I've only been doing this for a little over 10 years), you may not have learned or experienced that side as yet?

What I meant & should have put clearer was the vast majority of horses that I and others that I know have dealt with. I have personally only lost one horse to founder. That was a 27yo with sole penetration, worn pedal bone & suspected cushings before his owner found me. I've dealt with many horses at many levels of founder & rotation, including a few who were so far gone they had sole penetration. There are also HEAPS of examples on the internet & if you contact the AANHCP & associated type organisations.

My donkey(who the 'experts' had said had OK feet for a donk) had sole penetration by the time I started learning all this, and the fronts of his pedal bones on the front feet were actually behind the vertical! This approach was a 'last ditch' effort before I put the 24yo down, for apparent arthritis in his knees & fetlocks. His feet never became fantastic by any means(I was also a beginner then & likely made many mistakes), but he was padded full time initially to keep him comfortable, soon off painkillers(which he'd been on for a year previously) & happily running around in the paddock unpadded within a few months. It did take over a year to correct the rotation completely & get the coffin bone back to near ground parallel, but he spent the last decade of his life sound & happy.

Quote:
Most horses seem to be more comfortable and happy with a job to do. They respond to it and make it a part of their lives--kind of like us. I've had many of old girls and boys who wanted to work at 30 years old and didn't like retirement one bit.
Yes, agree that horses can get rather bored & sour if left in a paddock no matter how cushy & comfortable, whether retired or not. Actually not just horses - brings to mind a quote that went something like...'We act as if comfort & happiness were the most important things, but all that really counts is having something to be enthusiastic about.'

I also agree that 'work' can be better for them from a health perspective - the more low-stress exercise the better. But it depends on the paddock setup, lifestyle, company, etc. as to whether they should get bored, too sedentary, whatever. And with adequate protection, even only 'paddock sound' horses can get out & about.
     
    12-19-2009, 12:35 AM
  #40
Trained
Check out this study. It's only a small study, but one of the better ones, in terms of clarity & straight evidence & factors involved. Plenty more out there tho...

http://www.hoofrehab.com/AAEP_Manuscript.pdf
     

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Laminitis supplements kwal83 Horse Health 10 10-28-2009 11:28 PM
Laminitis My2Geldings Horse Health 5 07-06-2009 03:17 PM
laminitis cubbinbaby Horse Health 3 10-11-2008 12:41 PM
Do u have any problems with laminitis? the real horse whisperer Horse Health 2 03-06-2007 12:02 AM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0