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Mudpie is FAT.

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        02-04-2013, 01:42 AM
      #11
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mudpie    
    I rescued Mudpie at about 200 pounds underweight, and two years later, for the first time ever... he is FAT!
    While you're aware of health probs from obesity, as with ourselves, horses can afford to get fat without health probs, but it's retaining weight(don't have to be obese) long term without regular 'hard seasons' to use up the fat stores that tend to cause metabolic & other issues. So it's great that you're aware & good to start feeding him differently because of it, but don't stress!

    Quote:
    He's being switched off of alfalfa to a grass/alfalfa mix.
    Yes, alfalfa is quite high in energy, protein & calcium, among other stuff, so best not to feed too much of that - about 1/4 of the daily forage ration tends to be considered reasonable - & I'd consider cutting it all together if he's already too fat. BUT grass hay can also be quite high sugar/starch, depending on type, how it's grown, etc - eg most hay is made from 'improved' cattle fattening rye grass, etc. So I would be looking for low NSC grass hay if poss.

    Quote:
    Mudpie still needs to be receiving 2% of his body weight in forage (that's approx. 20 lbs). Will grass hay make it okay for me to be feeding him that weight of forage?
    It would be much better than receiving it in alfalfa. You can reduce it to 1.5% bwt daily minimum if needed. The most important thing is to ensure the horse has access to hay free choice or little & often, so he doesn't have any substantial periods of hunger. You only mention feeding 2 meals/biscuits of lucerne daily at the moment & this is not adequate if he isn't getting other hay/grazing.

    If you're nervous about leaving him with a hay net, there are different kinds of hay bags, or you could buy/make a 'slow feeder' from weldmesh or such, to slow his intake & prevent him gorging.

    Re his current diet, we've discussed alfalfa/lucerne, but I'm interested why he gets 2 different omega supps? As the Equus one is high fat I'd ditch that one, for now at least. I'd also divide the other supps up between the meals & feed more frequently if at all possible.

    When changing diet, also be aware that nutritional supplements that were appropriate may also need to be changed/adjusted to balance the new regime.
    Kayty likes this.
         
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        02-04-2013, 01:50 AM
      #12
    Trained
    White chaff is just oaten or wheaten chaff as opposed to lucerne/alfalfa chaff.
    Oaten is preferred, but some people have no problems feeding out wheaten.

    I wouldn't give him any of those concentrates, as I said, just a good supplement mixed into the chaff. The hard feeds all contain significant amounts of fat - which he does not need. A salt lick will not supply everything that he needs.

    My gelding is a VERY good doer, he is only paddocked every second day in a fairly sparse paddock, is worked 6 days/week, with at least 4 of those days being hard work for an hour. He gets 1 SMALL biscuit of lucerne (alfalfa) every second day (when he is in a yard), only 200g of oaten chaff with a handful of sunflower seeds, Mitavite Extra-Cool and 20g Khonke's Cell-Provide. Then as much average quality grass hay as he'll eat.
    And he is still too fat for my liking, but very shiny, full of energy and very much healthy and happy.

    Cut the hard feed, trust me, he doesn't need it.
    loosie likes this.
         
        02-04-2013, 02:00 AM
      #13
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    While you're aware of health probs from obesity, as with ourselves, horses can afford to get fat without health probs, but it's retaining weight(don't have to be obese) long term without regular 'hard seasons' to use up the fat stores that tend to cause metabolic & other issues. So it's great that you're aware & good to start feeding him differently because of it, but don't stress!



    Yes, alfalfa is quite high in energy, protein & calcium, among other stuff, so best not to feed too much of that - about 1/4 of the daily forage ration tends to be considered reasonable - & I'd consider cutting it all together if he's already too fat. BUT grass hay can also be quite high sugar/starch, depending on type, how it's grown, etc - eg most hay is made from 'improved' cattle fattening rye grass, etc. So I would be looking for low NSC grass hay if poss.



    It would be much better than receiving it in alfalfa. You can reduce it to 1.5% bwt daily minimum if needed. The most important thing is to ensure the horse has access to hay free choice or little & often, so he doesn't have any substantial periods of hunger. You only mention feeding 2 meals/biscuits of lucerne daily at the moment & this is not adequate if he isn't getting other hay/grazing.

    If you're nervous about leaving him with a hay net, there are different kinds of hay bags, or you could buy/make a 'slow feeder' from weldmesh or such, to slow his intake & prevent him gorging.

    Re his current diet, we've discussed alfalfa/lucerne, but I'm interested why he gets 2 different omega supps? As the Equus one is high fat I'd ditch that one, for now at least. I'd also divide the other supps up between the meals & feed more frequently if at all possible.

    When changing diet, also be aware that nutritional supplements that were appropriate may also need to be changed/adjusted to balance the new regime.
    The grass/alfalfa mix that the feed store offers has very little alfalfa in it. I'd love to switch him to a hay that was entirely grass, but my mother has some odd aversion to grass hay. I talked to my mother and stepfather tonight, and they agreed to let me feed him the grass/alfalfa mix. The regular grass hay is very expensive. As my stepfather is gracious enough to pay for Mudpie's feed and board, and also paid for the ACP treatment, I really don't want to push it and ask him to pay that much more money. He really doesn't have any obligation to pay for as much as he does.

    When he's been fed grass hay before, he usually eats it very slowly. This is a horse that has historically been very hard to keep weight on, but I guess I finally did something right! Too right, apparently.

    I would love to feed Mudpie more than two meals a day, but he gets his breakfast, and then I am at school until 3:30, and I go immediately to the barn, when he gets his dinner around 5:00. I have no way of getting any more feedings to him, though I'd really love it if I could.

    As for the question about omegas: the Fiber Max Omega is a beet pulp based, low energy "grain" that he receives low amounts of, for his supplements to be mixed into. The SmartOmega 3 is a supplement that he receives in order to help with overall health, as the past two winters have been a bit rough for him, health-wise, and I wanted to do all I could to help with his immune strength, etc. So far, he's been doing very well and hasn't had any problems with illnesses or other problems. I'm contemplating switching the Equus feed for pelleted rice bran. He's getting very little of these concentrates, solely for the sake of mixing supplements in, but perhaps it would help all the more? What do you think?

    Thank you very much for all of your replies, I really appreciate them!
         
        02-04-2013, 02:10 AM
      #14
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kayty    
    White chaff is just oaten or wheaten chaff as opposed to lucerne/alfalfa chaff.
    Oaten is preferred, but some people have no problems feeding out wheaten.

    I wouldn't give him any of those concentrates, as I said, just a good supplement mixed into the chaff. The hard feeds all contain significant amounts of fat - which he does not need. A salt lick will not supply everything that he needs.

    My gelding is a VERY good doer, he is only paddocked every second day in a fairly sparse paddock, is worked 6 days/week, with at least 4 of those days being hard work for an hour. He gets 1 SMALL biscuit of lucerne (alfalfa) every second day (when he is in a yard), only 200g of oaten chaff with a handful of sunflower seeds, Mitavite Extra-Cool and 20g Khonke's Cell-Provide. Then as much average quality grass hay as he'll eat.
    And he is still too fat for my liking, but very shiny, full of energy and very much healthy and happy.

    Cut the hard feed, trust me, he doesn't need it.
    Ah, I get it now! Sorry, I'm a bit slow. He receives four supplements: one for his hooves, which tend to be icky, one for the prevention of ulcers, because he can be a bit of a worrier, one for joints, which is being switched out for tendon support, and one for overall health, as he can become "run down" during the cooler months. :) OH! And a calming one, because he has been going out of his mind and getting far too wound up for his own recovery.

    I do need to feed him some form of low energy "grain" for his supplements to be mixed in to. Would pelleted rice bran be a better choice?

    Would you recommend oat hay over grass hay? It is not immediately available, and would be harder to acquire, but it is a possibility that I could pursue if it would be a better choice.

    Thank you very much for taking the time to respond!

    I don't have any good pictures from today, but I did take a rather pointless 15 second video of him grazing. You can see a bit of him, anyways.

         
        02-04-2013, 02:26 AM
      #15
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mudpie    
    I have no way of getting any more feedings to him, though I'd really love it if I could.
    & while it would be more ideal if you could, if you're not feeding grain, etc, don't stress about that either, IMO! But he definitely needs more than 2 biscuits/meals of hay.

    Quote:
    As for the question about omegas: the Fiber Max Omega is a beet pulp based, low energy "grain" that he receives low amounts of, for his supplements to be mixed into. The SmartOmega 3 is a supplement that he receives in order to help with overall health, as the past two winters have been a bit rough for him, health-wise, and I wanted to do all I could to help with his immune strength, etc. So far, he's been doing very well and hasn't had any problems with illnesses or other problems. I'm contemplating switching the Equus feed for pelleted rice bran.
    OK, if he's only getting very small(like a handful or 2) amounts, shouldn't really matter too much energy-wise, but beet pulp & rice bran are both high energy feeds.
         
        02-04-2013, 02:29 AM
      #16
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    & while it would be more ideal if you could, if you're not feeding grain, etc, don't stress about that either, IMO! But he definitely needs more than 2 biscuits/meals of hay.

    OK, if he's only getting very small(like a handful or 2) amounts, shouldn't really matter too much energy-wise, but beet pulp & rice bran are both high energy feeds.
    Is there a lower energy feed that I could look into? Maybe it's because it's so late, but my brain is drawing a blank. Thanks. :)
         
        02-04-2013, 06:46 AM
      #17
    Trained
    Why does it HAVE to be grain that his supplements are mixed in? Why not just chaff? It's cheaper!

    Oaten hay makes my horses nearly explode. They scoff it, and get extremely fat on it. I'm assuming your grass hay is the same as our meadow hay - just plain cut pasture rather than cereal hay?
         
        02-04-2013, 10:59 AM
      #18
    Yearling
    The NIBBLENET Slow Feeder Hay Bags - thenibblenet.com - Official website of The NIBBLENET Slow feeder Hay Bag - Slow Feed Hay Bags for Horses
    natisha and mudpie like this.
         
        02-04-2013, 11:09 AM
      #19
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kayty    
    Why does it HAVE to be grain that his supplements are mixed in? Why not just chaff? It's cheaper!

    Oaten hay makes my horses nearly explode. They scoff it, and get extremely fat on it. I'm assuming your grass hay is the same as our meadow hay - just plain cut pasture rather than cereal hay?
    I may be mistaken, but I really don't think that there's any chaff available here, even by another name. I looked into it, and wether it's just not in California, or not in the U.S., I haven't been able to find any.

    And yes, I do believe that meadow hay and grass hay are the same sort of hay.

    Thanks :)


    Thanks, I really like the look of that! :)
         
        02-04-2013, 12:03 PM
      #20
    Teen Forum Moderator
    What about mixing his suppliments in a pound or so of Timothy hay pellets?
    mudpie likes this.
         

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