My awfully lame - newly barefoot mare has swollen legs. - Page 2
   

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My awfully lame - newly barefoot mare has swollen legs.

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  • Barefoot 3 weeks lame
  • Horse leg swollen transition to barefoot

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    10-17-2011, 11:35 PM
  #11
Weanling
Vennice turpintine
     
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    10-18-2011, 12:21 AM
  #12
Trained
And a good set of shoes!!
sandy2u1 and nvr2many like this.
     
    10-21-2011, 05:12 AM
  #13
Weanling
Thanks so much :)
Swelling went down as soon as I started to walk her. She is fine now, she is walking very careful over the road, but not lame. She is completly fine on soft ground. Being hyper because she didn't move enough, she canters, bucks...
Do you think it's smart to lunge her? I think she's fine...
Farrier said he comes in 2, 3 weeks, because her hooves will probably crack a bit.
P.s.: she doesn't have thrush, I don't know why he took it off... But he didn't touch sole.
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    10-21-2011, 06:22 AM
  #14
Started
Horses were not born with iron shoes on. Wild horses don't wear shoes they run bare footed. So what is it humans are doing wrong. I generally leave my horse bare footed for as long as I can and only use shoes when I am riding on stone, or paved roads. Natural is the way in my humble opinion. With exceptions as mentioned.

Pain for the horse I do not advicate, but if it is short lived and improves the horses hooves then keep an eye on it and continue. The horse will benifit in the long run. Running bare foot after a while the hoof will increase in size and spread a little. That makes the hoof able to spread the load over a wider surface resulting in less preasure points. Got to be better in the long run. My horse Savannah had huge feet like big dinner plates I often commented she could walk on water. No problems with her hooves.

Stella has the shoes off as often as I can in an attempt to improve the size of her hooves. Not a great help for you but encouragement if bare foot is the aim. Also if you live in a dry area make a foot bath and stand the horse in water daily, the hooves benifit from moisture.
     
    10-21-2011, 10:39 AM
  #15
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan    
Horses were not born with iron shoes on. Wild horses don't wear shoes they run bare footed. So what is it humans are doing wrong. (?)
Lot's of things. In example....

1. Presuming that because a horse is not born with orthotics that none will be needed for the domesticated horse expected to meet the use based expectations of their owner.

2. Presuming that there is significant, comparative relationship between the needs of the feral/wild horse and that of the discipline bred, domesticated horse expected to meet the performance needs of the owner.

3. Presuming that wild horses, grazing at liberty over thousands of acres of semi-arid land, have the same distal limb management needs as the domesticated animal managed in a completely different environment and expected to meet use based expectations of a human owner.

4. Failing to recognize and acknowledge that the routine mechanical/pathological failures that are often managed or corrected in the longer lived domestic horse are a routine death sentence for the wild horse.

5. Engaging in internet counsel to owners of lame horses even though you possess no formal training or significant experience in the trades of either the professional farrier or veterinarian. Hypothetical case in point... if this particular owners horse were to die because she followed your counsel as to how best to manage her horses problems, are you willing to take personal and professional responsibility for that outcome? Should her horse suddenly suffer mechanical founder due trauma the vascular bed, a potential consequence of inadequate solar depth and possible distal descent, are you prepared to counsel said owner through the management and treatment of such pathology?


Quote:
I generally leave my horse bare footed for as long as I can and only use shoes when I am riding on stone, or paved roads. Natural is the way in my humble opinion. With exceptions as mentioned.
If "natural is the way" then why are their exceptions? How does your "management" and experience of a single horse living and used in New Zealand qualify you to provide lameness counsel to an owner whose horse lives near the Adriatic sea? Is it possible that environment and intended use may be considerably different than your own?

Quote:
Pain for the horse I do not advicate, but if it is short lived and improves the horses hooves then keep an eye on it and continue. The horse will benifit in the long run.
Really? What exactly is the owner supposed to "keep an eye on". When did pain become a curative property of healthy transition? How exactly does pain become beneficial in the long run and is there any point at which you might suggest that perhaps the pain is symptomatic of a problem which may or may not require professional attention?

Quote:
Running bare foot after a while the hoof will increase in size and spread a little. That makes the hoof able to spread the load over a wider surface resulting in less preasure points.
Really? So if I leave a club-footed horse barefoot, that foot will increase in size and spread, reducing pressure points? How about a horse suffering hi-lo syndrome? Bilateral limb length disparity? What if that "spreading" is a consequence of capsule distortion at the quarters and subsequent quarter cracks? Barefoot cures all ills?

Quote:
Got to be better in the long run.
How is leaving a flat-footed, thin soled horse suffering in discomfort over challenging terrain better in the long run? Make 'em hurt until they don't so you won't have to incur the expense and personal responsibility that comes with the ownership of a domestic horse? Why should a farrier or vet help you subsidize the neglectful, unnecessary discomfort of a domestic horse?

Quote:
My horse Savannah had huge feet like big dinner plates I often commented she could walk on water. No problems with her hooves.
And that singular, completely different, anecdotal example somehow qualifies you to advise this particular horse owner how???

Quote:
Stella has the shoes off as often as I can in an attempt to improve the size of her hooves. Not a great help for you but encouragement if bare foot is the aim.
Let's cut to the chase. Why is barefoot the "aim"? Why isn't the "aim" the relief/correction of a horse in discomfort? Why isn't the "aim" the professional administration of whatever methodology best meets the needs of the horse and the intended environmental/performance use of that animal by the owner?

Quote:
Also if you live in a dry area make a foot bath and stand the horse in water daily, the hooves benifit from moisture.
Let's just simplify this mess. You have absolutely no formal experience or training whatsoever in the proper management of the equine distal limb, domestic or wild, regardless of environment or use, but somehow feel utterly and completely comfortable dispensing irresponsible and nonsensical commentary and opinion to an owner with a horse in some level of undiagnosed discomfort. And, of course, should this particular horse happen to suffer through and survive the trauma of their "barefoot transition experience", you'll be the first to claim "see, I told you so!", right?

I've got to ask. Do you also and routinely play doctor on website forums devoted to human patients seeking help?

To the OP... your horse has little foot mass/volume, is flat and probably thin soled as evidenced by the shallow depth of the collateral commmissures near the apex of the frog and bearing as much or more load on the anterior solar tissues as the distal capsule wall. Radiographs would likely indicate no more and probably less than 10mm of sole thickness under the solar margin of the distal phalanx. This lack of depth is causal in excess pressure on the vascular bed and the tenderness your horse experiences when traversing difficult or challenging terrain. That pressure creates inflammation of the soft solar tissues and is likely causal in the edema visible in the distal limb (distal to and including the proximal phalangeal joint).

Over time the exposed solar tissues may harden enough to afford the foot some protection/relief, as will any wall growth that reduces pressure on those tissues. This is the "transition" period you may hear others describe. It's a painful, unnecessary transition. Risks include trauma related sub-solar bruising, possible abscess (secondary infection associated with bruising/trauma) and, worst case scenario's of mechanically induced laminitis.

The application of orthotics can reduce that risk by relieving solar pressure and providing needed protection until such time as the animal grows enough wall length to afford solar relief of sensitive tissues. Once that is accomplished (presuming ever), the orthotics can be removed, the foot more conservatively trimmed to balance and the horse allowed to demonstrate what barefoot capability can be achieved. That "transition" would be comparatively low risk, low cost and should require no more than 6-8 weeks to achieve.

Radiographs would remove speculation about solar depth and coffin bone position within the hoof capsule, providing a better diagnostic and evaluation of your horses ability to meet your performance expectations.

Barefoot should not be a "try it and see" effort. It is a management protocol decision that should be based on the needs of the horse and your use based expectations of the animal.

The comment that "She is fine now, she is walking very careful over the road, but not lame" is an oxymoron. The horse is either sound or it is not. Horses absent lameness do not "walk very careful over the road". Your farrier and vet are best qualified to assist you in determining the optimal protocol to meet your horses needs.

Cheers,
Mark
     
    10-21-2011, 10:51 AM
  #16
mls
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan    

Stella has the shoes off as often as I can in an attempt to improve the size of her hooves.
Sorry - the size of the hoof is the size of the hoof. Barefoot they may pancake but they are not increasing in size.
     
    10-21-2011, 01:58 PM
  #17
Trained
A lot of horses "walk very carefully" because more than one hoof is sore and they can only limp on one foot at a time.
     
    10-21-2011, 02:17 PM
  #18
Started
Cheers Mark, and you are obviously upset by my post and you feel justified. You have targeted out of context I did say in a humble opinion and make no claim to be an expert. Just offered as others have another point of view or idea.

Sorry you feel that yours is the only point of view, and have gone to great lengths to hit home your feelings The positive was glossed over by you in an obvious attempt to vent. To insinuate I don't care for the horse is a nonsence in its self. Most who post any comment on the threads are not setting themselves up as experts but only offering a differing point of view for consideration.

Your comment Living in a country like New Zealand, it does give a different view and should in fairness be read as coming from differing cultural perspective than perhaps your own.

Mark, I did not and never have set myself up as an expert on any subject. As most others that post a response offer a different idea based on their understanding of the origional post and due to experences had have tried differing methods of dealing with horse problems.

Now if you want you can make somthing of the following statement as it is providing entertaining and informitive reading.

I only use a vet that ownes and rides horses. Why, because they can communicate to the owners on the same level.

Farriers. I have had some bad experences with farriers and seen hooves stuffed up by such persons then on the other hand the one I use now, and no, not a contradiction if you took the time to read in the context it was ment you will have seen I also put shoes on the horse when the conditions require. Back to the farrier the one I use now is top of the line and also gives me good advice.

You must be feeling better now after venting mark and thanks for the read.

Mis. My farrier disagrees with you and since the horses have been bare foot the quality of the hooves have improved. Standing the horse in water has also improved the hooves as moisture is a component required. And that is not to say standing in water is the fix all.

I await a further response.
bkylem likes this.
     
    10-21-2011, 02:34 PM
  #19
Weanling
Quote:
It looks to me like she has very flat soles around the toe and rings - albeit quite minor looking - on her feet which indicate she could be laminitic
I noticed that rings too... But I don't think she has/had laminitis. She wasn't lame, didn't have hot hooves, no pulse... I don't see a reason how she could get it. She is a hard keeper, always slightly underweight, now for the past 2 months we finally managed to get her in nice shape. She only gets free choice hay, a bit more than 4 cups (before soaking) beet pulp, an hour or two grazing and vitamin/mineral mix. We only do trail rides, not hard for her at all. Maximum was 3 hours this summer. I take care that she doesn't work hard or long on asphalt or similiar. I wonder if rings could be from changing her feed often?


I want to have her barefoot only for the winter. It's my senior year and I won't be able to ride much (if at all...) so my farrier agreed it was a good idea to take her shoes off. If by any miracle she was ok on gravel too, then we would leave her barefoot for summer too, but I don't think that will happen.

Quote:
The comment that "She is fine now, she is walking very careful over the road, but not lame" is an oxymoron. The horse is either sound or it is not. Horses absent lameness do not "walk very careful over the road".

She is sound on the soft grass, on fine sand, in hard ground paddock with no grass (no rain for so long...), but she is walking slowly and carefully over the gravel road. I expect she won't be able to walk on it. I'm not excersising her on gravel road, she goes over to go to the paddock. No other way to get there. I picked the sharp stones on one part and I lead her over that part, but when she is loose she doesn't go there.



     
    10-21-2011, 10:33 PM
  #20
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseman56    

The application of orthotics can reduce that risk by relieving solar pressure and providing needed protection until such time as the animal grows enough wall length to afford solar relief of sensitive tissues. Once that is accomplished (presuming ever), the orthotics can be removed, the foot more conservatively trimmed to balance and the horse allowed to demonstrate what barefoot capability can be achieved. That "transition" would be comparatively low risk, low cost and should require no more than 6-8 weeks to achieve.
I think I said something similar, in layman's terms, on page 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trailhorserider    

If it were me, I think I would be inclined to shoe the horse another cycle to let the feet grow out, then pull the shoes and not trim the feet at all at first. So she has some protection while adjusting to barefoot. Then in another month or so after pulling the shoes, have her feet trimmed. No sole at all taken out when they are trimmed.
     

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