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post #11 of 30 Old 11-23-2009, 11:58 AM
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My boss at the equine hospital regularly dosed otherwise healthy adult horses with no known deworming history with Quest with no ill effects. Since adult horses are much less likely to carry heavy parasite loads even with limited deworming, the risk of impaction colic due to killing parasites in adult horses is lower than in foals. Around 50% of adult horses control parasite burdends due to their own developed immunity with minimal deworming, meaning twice a year to treat parasites that they don't develop a resistance to--bots and tapeworms.

Cindy D.
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post #12 of 30 Old 11-23-2009, 12:11 PM
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It may just be my vets experience, but she specifically said dont use quest. The gel is absorbed very quickly, so she said inacurate doses can cause problems (under or over.) She saw three horses this year who all got ulcers from it. It could be from worms in the mouth, but my point is simmilar products dont have those effects she saw.

I used PP on my horse about 6 years ago, he had an infestation and that why the vet recomended. That study wasnt out then. This time around when my new horse got an infestation we used pills. with the PP the vet told me not to ride the horse till it all out of his system, and I was advised to call the vet if I saw anything unusual. This time around the vet didnt say anything about adverse effects. Ive only been told to use PP when absolutely necessary, when you know their is an infestation.

How sever is the GI inflamation? Does it go away quickly?
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post #13 of 30 Old 11-23-2009, 12:20 PM
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Before you toss out there that my vets are out of date I will say that they just totally re-vamped their de-worming protocol after much study. It still includes a PP when necessary. You do what your vets tell you to do and the rest of us will follow what our vets tell us to do. I trust my vets.
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post #14 of 30 Old 11-23-2009, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ryle View Post
Mouth ulcerations can be seen with moxidectin or ivermectin due to the killing of bot fly larva that are encysted in the gums/tongue. However this is more common with one specific ivermectin product-Zimectrin Gold.

Quest Plus doesn't cross the blood brain barrier unless there is a problem such as over-dosing or some damage the the central nervous system or organ dysfunction. Head/neck trauma, inflammation of the central nervous system, EPM, etc can all affect the functioning of the blood-brain-barrier and lead to neurotoxicity from allowing substances that should not pass into the CNS to do get there.
The horse I know of that died from Quest was because it crossed the blood-brain barrier. Because of an oral ulcer... most likely from a plant of some kind. I cannot guarantee that my horses' mouths are in perfect condition, other than from a dentistry stand point.

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I simply cannot understand the logic behind giving a drug to kill encysted larva that are doing no damage and with which the major issue is the severe GI inflammation that they can cause if they all emerge at once when you know that the drug you are giving causes the very severe inflammation that is the main reason for getting rid of encysted strongyles.
My logic goes like this. If she does have a load of encysted larvae and I treat them with a PP - they die. Not all horses have a reaction to it - I've never had any show discomfort in any way. If the PP were to cause inflammation it's because it's killing the encysteds, rather than them emerging, and I'm ready if she gets a bit colicky.

But if left untreated, and the larvae emerge, then there are some major issues. One of which being internally bleeding to death. No thanks.

-Melanie
Mom to 3 bays: Beau, Daisy & Cavalina
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post #15 of 30 Old 11-23-2009, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sillybunny11486 View Post
How sever is the GI inflamation? Does it go away quickly?
The results from the study showed severe inflammation and even ulceration of the GI tract---severe enough to mimic the larval cyathostomiasis that treating encysted strongyles is supposed to prevent because it can lead to severe colic and death of tissues in the GI tract.

How do you know if you have an infestation of encysted strongyles? There is no test that can determine this except for actually looking at the lining of the GI tract. As for having a high number of strongyle eggs shed in the feces, that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to PP your horses. Treating with ivermectin or moxidectin will clear the adult parasites and moxidectin will clear a large number of the encysted larva without the inflammation.

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post #16 of 30 Old 11-23-2009, 10:42 PM
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The horse I know of that died from Quest was because it crossed the blood-brain barrier. Because of an oral ulcer... most likely from a plant of some kind. I cannot guarantee that my horses' mouths are in perfect condition, other than from a dentistry stand point.
I would question this. Mouth ulcers should not cause moxidectin to cross the blood brain barrier. However if the issue was that the horse had eaten silverleaf nightshade (bull nettle), then it could definitely lead to toxicity issues with moxidectin even at normally safe doses. This occurs with ivermectin too if a horse has eaten bull nettle---A&M did a study on it a few years ago. But it's because of the damage done by the toxic plant not that the dewormer is bad.



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My logic goes like this. If she does have a load of encysted larvae and I treat them with a PP - they die. Not all horses have a reaction to it - I've never had any show discomfort in any way. If the PP were to cause inflammation it's because it's killing the encysteds, rather than them emerging, and I'm ready if she gets a bit colicky.

But if left untreated, and the larvae emerge, then there are some major issues. One of which being internally bleeding to death. No thanks.
Your logic is rather skewed.

Most likely your horse didn't show symptoms of the inflammation in the past that you noticed for the same reason that many many horses can have GI ulcers without owners noticing symptoms. It is extremely common for horses to have severe GI ulcers without owners being aware.

If your horse has significant enough encysted strongyles to lead to internally bleeding to death (btw, not likely) then by giving a PP you are simply triggering the process of severe inflammation that you are trying to stop by killing the encysted parasites. In this case, it's not likely that there would have been a mass emergence of the larva all at one time but rather that a small portion would have emerged and not caused nearly as much damage. You are better off to treat with moxidectin and kill a portion of the encysted strongyles without causing GI inflammation than to kill all of them and trigger a serious GI disturbance.

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post #17 of 30 Old 11-23-2009, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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I would question this. Mouth ulcers should not cause moxidectin to cross the blood brain barrier. However if the issue was that the horse had eaten silverleaf nightshade (bull nettle), then it could definitely lead to toxicity issues with moxidectin even at normally safe doses. This occurs with ivermectin too if a horse has eaten bull nettle---A&M did a study on it a few years ago. But it's because of the damage done by the toxic plant not that the dewormer is bad.
Ok, maybe. It's not my horse. That is what the vet who necropsied it said.





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Your logic is rather skewed.

Most likely your horse didn't show symptoms of the inflammation in the past that you noticed for the same reason that many many horses can have GI ulcers without owners noticing symptoms. It is extremely common for horses to have severe GI ulcers without owners being aware.

If your horse has significant enough encysted strongyles to lead to internally bleeding to death (btw, not likely) then by giving a PP you are simply triggering the process of severe inflammation that you are trying to stop by killing the encysted parasites. In this case, it's not likely that there would have been a mass emergence of the larva all at one time but rather that a small portion would have emerged and not caused nearly as much damage. You are better off to treat with moxidectin and kill a portion of the encysted strongyles without causing GI inflammation than to kill all of them and trigger a serious GI disturbance.
So your saying, like horses with ulcers, it's extremely common for horses to have severe inflammation without the owner's being aware?... Yea, exactly my point.

Look, I have my reasons to use a PP and reasons why I'm not going to use Quest. I've never had problem with a PP - every horse I've worked with who has ever been given it has looked WAY better afterwards. I'm not going to sit here and beat this to death - all I asked was if anyone knew of a cheaper place to pick up a PP, that's it. My horses are in excellent condition, I know what I'm doing - although you might beg to differ.

And for the last time, Moxidectin does not clear everything.

-Melanie
Mom to 3 bays: Beau, Daisy & Cavalina

Last edited by My Beau; 11-23-2009 at 11:27 PM.
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post #18 of 30 Old 11-24-2009, 08:37 AM
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I think a PP is one of those situations where different is not wrong even though some people insist it is their way or the highway!
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post #19 of 30 Old 12-15-2009, 03:16 PM
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Wow. Lots of info for sure. Brands galore and several opinions on wormers for sure. Been using PP for quite a while--all new horses to my facility get em period.

Havn't had one die on me yet!!
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post #20 of 30 Old 12-16-2009, 12:39 PM
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You may not have one die, but you may be causing gastric ulcers which can lead to all sorts of problems including colic.

Cindy D.
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