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Protien comparsion...

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  • What is a good protien urine score

 
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    06-24-2009, 03:17 PM
  #21
Started
No usable protien is passed thur the kidney ..

Protien isn't near as hard on the kidney's as teh Ca:P ratio being off ...
     
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    06-24-2009, 03:27 PM
  #22
mls
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggysue    
protien isn't near as hard on the kidney's as teh Ca:P ratio being off ...
My husbands nephrologist might disagree with you on that one.
What is the diet like?

In general, the diet used for the early stages of kidney disease controls the amount of protein and phosphorus you eat. Usually, sodium is also controlled. Getting enough calories to maintain a healthy weight is very important at this time. The following information tells you where these nutrients are found in foods.
What about protein?

Your body needs protein every day for growth, building muscles and repairing tissue. After your body uses the protein in the foods you eat, a waste product called urea is made. If you have lost kidney function, your kidneys may not be able to get rid of this urea normally. You may need to reduce the amount of protein you eat to avoid buildup of urea in your body. Protein is found in two types of foods:
  • in large amounts in foods from animal sources such as poultry, meat, seafood, eggs, milk, cheese and other dairy products.
  • in smaller amounts in foods from plant sources such as breads, cereals, other starches and grains, and vegetables and fruits.
While you may need to limit the amount of protein you eat, it is important that you eat the right amount of protein. This helps to keep your body healthy.


Calcium/Phosphorous is damaging to the bones as the wrong balance will pull calcium out of the bones.
     
    06-24-2009, 05:19 PM
  #23
Cat
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggysue    
what many of you are missing is that the RB is LESS protiens then MOST feeds provide ... that is why you ahve to do the math

A ration balancer is designed to balance the average hay/pasture ... it is NOT a protien supplement .. you guys are like talking to a wall

Average sweet feed is 12% protien you are suppose to feed 6lbs a day which is the average weight of a 3qt scoop or large coffee can

So that is .6lbs of protien!!! Low quality protien that is going to pass though th system...
The reason we see so many POOR toplines is LOW QUALITY protien
Peggy - please go back and re-read some of the post, not just skim over or assume what is being said. I, for one, do not feed 6 lbs of any sweet feed. If I did that I would have foundered horses! I know a couple others besides me that are posting on this thread prefer to keep things simple - no extra feeds. Most of our horses' diets is just good hay/pasture and not a bunch of sweet feed. That is why your argument doesn't hold a lot of water for us because you are always comparing RB to a diet we do not feed.

Is RB an improvement for a horse on a diet high in sweet feeds or oats? Yes it could be and I am not arguing that point. But I also believe there are other options besides RB that could work just as well, if not better for some of these horses. And horses that already aren't on a bunch of extra feeds? Unless they are increasing their work load, they most likely do not need the extra protein in RB. If a supplement is needed to help balance the hay - there are plenty to choose from that have very little protein levels and are fed in small amounts.

Poor quality toplines can be due to a variety of reasons - usually not worked enough or being worked improperly and even ill-fitting saddles.
     
    06-24-2009, 05:37 PM
  #24
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat    
I know a couple others besides me that are posting on this thread prefer to keep things simple - no extra feeds. Most of our horses' diets is just good hay/pasture and not a bunch of sweet feed. That is why your argument doesn't hold a lot of water for us because you are always comparing RB to a diet we do not feed.
Yes my horse gets 1 pound of simple rolled oats (not sweet feed or ANY supplements) and as much hay as he wants. It is in front of him 24/7 as is his mineral block and if outside he has grass. Poor horse.
     
    06-24-2009, 06:21 PM
  #25
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat    
I know of 2 ponies so far that have switched to RB and went into kidney failure shortly afterwards. It was fed at the level recommended on the bag for them. Was it solely due to the RB? Probably not - can't even prove these two instances were due to RB at all, though it seems highly coincidental when in both instances those were the only changes in their life. Problem is - horses and ponies can hide issues very easily. These horses may have already been having kidney issues before this and no one knew it and may have gone on the rest of their lives just fine. But the added protein in the RB could have pushed them over the edge since the kidneys had to handle the excess.
I'll give you that. There are always going to exceptions. Just like the horses that died or aborted fetuses when given Quest dewormer or the WNV vaccine. Proverbial "stuff" happens. Is that a reason to say RBs, Quest, or the WNV vaccine is BAD? Well of course not!

Quote:
However, many studies are showing that unless your horses are doing high-level performance, most hays & pastures have adequate protein. Why do we need to add even MORE to the diet then? I just never understood that frame of mind and one of the reasons I never jumped on the RB bandwagon. I do agree - sweet feeds and other feeds with a high NSC are not good for most horses. However, I also don't think extra protein is good either, especially when they are getting adequate amounts from their hay or pasture.
I do agree with you there. I wish RBs would have a lower protein alternative. The problem is, one of the main benefits of using an RB is the quality amino acids which ARE defecient in MOST hays (grass hay especially). The easiest way to increase quality amino acids is to increase the protein content.

Quote:
When supplementing is needed - I prefer recommending a little beet pulp (which is only 10% and I usually only give enough for the supplements to mix in unless the horse needs to gain weight or something) and just a regular vitamin/mineral supplement. These are usually given in a 1.5-3 oz scoop. This overall is very little added protein above and beyond the normal forage. Pastured horses who are in good weight only get a mineral block. So coming from this view - RB are a very concentrated dose of protein in comparrison.
I agree with you, except I recommend Alfalfa pellets with a vitamin. AP is high in some of the amino acids that are low in grass hay. The protein is lower than an RB (15-17%), but you also need to feed more than just a pound. I usually recommend 1.5-5 lbs, depending on the horse and situation.

Vitamin/mineral supplements are usually low in amino acids as well. There are some there, but not much. Protein is only part of the equation. The QUALITY of the protein is very important. Without quality protein that is high in amino acids, the horse cannot properly utilize the protein and it's just peed back out...

That is why many horses on hay-only diets, or those not receive proper amounts of the grain/feed they are eating, don't have a lot of muscle tone or have a mediocre topline. There are always exceptions of course, but if you have a horse that is lacking in muscle tone (not a fat or rounded horse, but one without defined muscles) and/or poor/mediocre topline, often increasing amino acids will help without the need for extra exercise or special training equipment.

You can increase aminos without feeding different foods. Uckele makes a good product called Tri-Amino that you can simply add to whatever your horse is currently eating.
Uckele Equine Nutrition
They don't list the protein content on it.
     
    06-24-2009, 06:32 PM
  #26
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by mls    
The very best person to ask about your particular horses nutritional needs is a local nutrition expert. They are impartial to feed brands and look at the need of your horse taking into consideration - body score, health, work load, environment, availability of feeds, and hay content. Some areas of the country can grow outstanding hay and little more is needed. Some people can't afford top quality hay and need to balance with a type of feed or supplement, etc.

Suggestions by internet can only be suggestions.
Very true. Everyone should know their local Cooperative Extension Service web site and email. They will be able to tell you the average for hay produced in the area. They can also test your hay, pasture grass, and soil so you can know exactly what it is you need to supplement with, if anything.

In our area, we are deficient in selenium, copper, and magnesium, so that's what I have to pay attention to when supplementing.
     
    06-24-2009, 06:54 PM
  #27
Foal
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
I will go with the two pounds of oats twice a day and with all that energy those sugars and starches have I will be able to line up 10 mares in a row and he will have all the energy to shout out.....................


LINE THEM UP GIRLS I AM READY FOR ACTION !!!!!!!!!!

Bahwahahahahahaha
Ahhh... Spyder? Does this mean you are sowing your wild oats?

EPMhorse
     
    06-24-2009, 10:06 PM
  #28
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggysue    
what many of you are missing is that the RB is LESS protiens then MOST feeds provide ... that is why you ahve to do the math


A ration balancer is designed to balance the average hay/pasture ... it is NOT a protien supplement .. you guys are like talking to a wall

A very good point that is often ignored.....most people don't have average hay. An analogy is pregnancy due dates. Somewhere around 5% of babies are born on their due dates. The average pregnancy lasts nine months, which gives us a due date. Only around 5% of babies are actually born on that date.

I have good pastures. I grow my own hay. I don't see any good reason to feed ANY feed except in limited circumstances.

As far as the rather offensive to me comment about talking to a brick wall....well, I could make that same comment back to you. But, you see, I am not trying to change your mind about this. I know I won't. That's OK. It's perfectly alright to disagree. My point is this: RBs are NOT appropriate for EVERY horse.

I, too, know of ponies who have had significant health problems after starting one. I'm quite certain that many horses do very well or even improve on them. MEAN, Old farmpony's horse comes to mind. It's just that blanket statements about one particular thing being the best choice in every situation are false and may be dangerous to some individuals.
     
    06-24-2009, 10:31 PM
  #29
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggysue    
no usable protien is passed thur the kidney ..

Protien isn't near as hard on the kidney's as teh Ca:P ratio being off ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by EPMhorse    
Ahhh... Spyder? Does this mean you are sowing your wild oats?

EPMhorse
I would also recommend that people consult their local nutrition expert and/or their vet. We cannot know the qualifications of any online poster.

If protein is passed through the kidneys protein WILL cause renal damage. Protein is a very large molecule. In fact, one of the ways that kidney damage is detected in humans with diabetes is to check urine for protein. You should not find protein in urine. Again, your local nutrition expert can give you this information.

Protein passing through the kidneys would most certainly cause renal failure/be a sign of renal failure vs improper Ca:P ratio.

You can compare your kidneys to a delicate cheesecloth. You can compare protein going thru the filter that is the kidney to pushing a pebble through a cheesecloth.

Metabolic Functions of the Liver


As far as Spyder goes.....she's been sowing her wild oats for a very long time. That the main reason why her boy wants to move to IL with me!!
     
    06-24-2009, 10:36 PM
  #30
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshie    
As far as Spyder goes.....she's been sowing her wild oats for a very long time. That the main reason why her boy wants to move to IL with me!!

Yeah and horsie wants some pretty girls all lined up so he gets some ACTION...but since I have been told he is a mess and IR then I don't think Joshie really wants a poor sick horsie !
     

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