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PSSM/head tilting/hind end lameness- Help me solve this!

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  • Pssm horse joint supplements
  • Buckeye pssm

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    03-13-2013, 12:55 PM
  #21
Foal
The problem is the price of Progressive brand. If I stay with Progressive this is the cost break down:
2.5 pounds of Progressive ProAd Ultimate x30 days = 75 pounds= 3 bags a month= $126
2 pounds of Progressive Envision Classic x30 days = 60 pounds = one 50 pound bag plus 10 pounds a month = ~$50
3 pounds of alfalfa pellets (we may need more) x30 days= 90 pounds a month = just under 2 bags a month= $32
MSM = ~$4 a month
Actistatin = $65 a month

Total = $277.00 a month

The vitamin/mineral one is a 25 pound bag for $42 ad the fat supplement is a 50 pound bag for $40. Her joint supplements add extra cost, but cannot be cut.

Plus the other half a pound of fat would come from vegetable oil which is not included in that cost.
Also, they hay is $5 a bale on average and that is not in the cost above.

I think I need to switch to using only oil as her fat supplement and use alfalfa pellets for absorption. I am not comfortable not feeding either a vitamin and mineral supplement or a low sugar/starch complete feed. I need to find a different brand for that.
The Progressive food rep said I needed double the normal amount of the Vitamin/mineral supplement than is suggested on the bag to make sure she gets enough amino acids. Thoughts on this? This seems odd to me- he is wrong to suggest that or their feeding instructions on the bag are not accurate. Dr. Beth didn't mention a concern about amino acids and muscle function, that is, in terms of adding extra to the diet.
     
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    03-13-2013, 01:04 PM
  #22
Trained
Please post links, if possible, to all supplements, so we can start looking for substitutes. Main supply of fat from oil is a big step to savings.
Up the hay, use alfalfa pellets only for hiding supplements, you should be good with one bag/month then.
Why MSM AND joint supplement? Would either be okay?
Vit/min...there are less costly versions, I'm sure.
An Omega supplement, like Omega Horseshine, for example, supplies 30% fat, and has anti inflammatory properties, and supplies some vit/mom's too.
And I'm pretty sure there's more
     
    03-13-2013, 01:07 PM
  #23
Trained
Oh, you beat me
Will get to it once I'm done picking poop....but look into the Omega Horseshine....there are your amino acids.....
     
    03-13-2013, 01:14 PM
  #24
Started
I think, for me, starting at the bottom of the barrel and working your way up is best. In other words, start with the neccessities that your horse needs....this in the beginning is 'fat' and how to get your horse to change over to it and actually eat it. Start with the cheapest, lowest sugar/starch stuff to mix it with and go from there. If you have to add something else for your horse to eat the fat that is higher in NSC's etc., then you may have to for a period of time. From my experience, after finding a way to get my horses to eat the mix with all the oil in it, you can start to fine tune the mixture with the other stuff. You may also find you don't need as much of the other stuff. Vit E and Selenium are the most important according to Dr. V. The other stuff matters too if he is deficient, but in the beginning, the main thing is to get the fat in something the horse will eat, then adjust a little at a time.

Dr. Valentine's diet that she emailed me:

EPSM (PSSM, EPSSM) DIETS
Designed by Dr. Beth Valentine with assistance from Drs. Harold (Skip) Hintz, Bob Van Saun, Don Kapper, and Kent Thompson

Goals: To provide no more than 15% total daily calories from starch and sugar, and at least 20-25% of total daily calories from fat

Forage:

Either grass or legume hay (such as alfalfa) can be fed. Alfalfa hay does not have a high enough starch content to be a concern.

Grain hays such as oat hay and barley hay with remaining seed heads should be avoided.

The amount of forage is not critical - it can be varied depending on whether the horse needs to gain or lose weight. Just do not feed less than 1% of the horse’s body weight in forage per day.
Lush spring pasture will be higher in starch and sugar than summer grass, and the amount of dietary fat may need to be increased during this time.

Vitamins and minerals:

Vitamin E: At least 1 IU vitamin E per lb of horse per day is important for all horses, especially those not on alfalfa products or green grass for much of the year. You cannot hurt a horse with extra vitamin E.

Selenium: About 1-2 mg selenium per 1000 lbs of horse per day is essential in areas that are selenium deficient. Selenium can be toxic at high levels, though, so be aware of all sources of selenium in your horse’s diet, and ask your veterinarian to have blood tested for selenium levels if there is any question of selenium deficiency or excess.

“Broad spectrum” vitamins and minerals: Horses on fat supplemented diets often will not be eating the manufacturers recommended amounts of fortified commercial concentrated feeds per day. If forage quality is good, most vitamins and minerals will be adequately supplied by forage. For horses on lesser quality forage, hard working horses, breeding horses, and growing horses, addition of a daily vitamin and mineral supplement is important.

Other supplements: Hoof supplements, joint supplements, etc. are not a problem when feeding EPSM horses.

Fat: EPSM horses need at least 1 lb of fat per 1000 lbs of horse per day.

Start with small amounts, such as 1/4 cup oil per feeding, and increase by about 1/4 cup every few days. Use the general rule that two cups of oil = 1 pint = l lb.

Treats for EPSM horses: Most EPSM horses are fine with carrots and apples in moderation. Avoid treats with grain or sugar. My horses like Kellogg’s Cracklin Oat Bran, which has about 20% calories from fat.


Specific Diets for EPSM Horses

* At the time of this writing there is no feed high enough in fat to provide the proper calorie ratios to EPSM horses without an additional fat source

In general, aim to feed no more than 5-6 lbs of any feed other than a pure forage based feed per 1000 lbs of horse per day.

Feed the minimum amount of feed in the bucket that gets the horse to eat the maximum amount of daily fat while maintaining good weight.

If it takes a small amount of something “sweet” (molasses, carrots and apples, apple juice, peppermint flavoring, a handful of oats or sweet feed, etc.) to get your horse to eat the right amount of added oil early on, this is not a problem. You can aim to decrease or eliminate this small amount of starch and sugar later.




Examples of very low starch and sugar feeds:

Alfalfa pellets
Other hay pellets
Alfalfa cubes - soak in water when adding oil
Beet pulp, low molasses content - soak in water
Complete feeds - meant to replace hay if needed
Dengie or chaff products
Chopped hay products


Examples of low starch and sugar feeds*:

*In general, feeds higher in protein and fat will be lower in starch and sugar. Ingredients such as soy hulls, beet pulp, bran, wheat brans, and wheat middlings are relatively low in starch and sugar.

Below are examples of low starch and sugar feeds, there are many others. If in doubt, contact the company and ask about starch and sugar content. Look for feeds no more than 33% starch and sugar.

If you can see grains in the product it is likely too high in starch and sugar for an EPSM horse.

Purina Strategy (14% protein – NOT 12% protein)
Nutrena Compete
Nutrena Safe Choice
Blue Seal Hunter, Demand, Vintage Gold
Senior feeds
LMF Stage 1
LMF Complete
Equi-Pro Carb-Safe
Platform horse feeds
Triple Crown Senior, Complete, Growth
Triple Crown Lite
Triple Crown Low Starch
Purina WellSolve L/S and W/C


Examples of higher fat feeds:

These are examples of feeds that allow addition of less added fat. Most companies suggest using these only as an addition to other feed. For EPSM horses, feed these alone along with good quality forage or a daily vitamin and mineral supplement:

Kent Feeds Omegatin (20% fat)
Nutrena Empower (22% fat)
Farmer’s Cooperative High Fat Low Carb (20% fat)
Moorglo (15% fat)
Rice bran, powdered (20% fat)
Buckeye Ultimate Finish (25% fat)
Nutrena Farr XTN (12% fat)
Re-Leve (about 10% fat)
Purina Ultium (12% fat)
Purina Amplify (30% fat supplement)

Calculate amounts of fat fed from these products by multiplying lbs fed per day by the percentage of fat. For example, 3 lbs of Ultimate Finish is 3 x 0.25 = 0.75 lb of fat.

Feeds with 20% or more fat can be supplemented with rice bran (20% fat) to provide additional fat. All other feeds require addition of a 100% fat source.

100% fat supplements:
Any salad type vegetable oil, such as soy, canola, corn, safflower, cottonseed, etc. Cocosoya and wheat germ oil are also fine, just more expensive.

Cool Calories dry fat product, by Milk Specialties - 800-323-5424 ext.1156, ask for Catherine Gerardi.

Cool Calories dry fat product, by Performance Horse Nutrition, Weiser, ID 208-549-2323.

Ultimate Finish 100, Buckeye Feeds
     
    03-13-2013, 01:47 PM
  #25
Started
Thanks, OHL, very helpful information!!

Nancy
     
    03-13-2013, 02:48 PM
  #26
Trained
I guess starch/NSC is not so much of a concern.....I cringe with more than 20% NSC

OHL, the Omegatin never crossed my mind....I have only an empty bucket in the feedroom, which I store my Horseshine in...duh......it's about 30$ for 20lbs
     
    03-13-2013, 03:04 PM
  #27
Trained
So, for the OP, what's eating up, literally, the most money are the two feeds....not the supplements.
I'd start with more, better hay, more or less free choice, weigh how much she actually consumes. Calculate calories the hay provides, and the difference between need and provided by hay is made up of fat or high in fat feeds, with alfalfa pellets as carrier . Add vit/min, the joint Supp and MSM. Done.
     
    03-13-2013, 06:09 PM
  #28
Foal
Thanks for all of the information guys.

Could the following vitamin and mineral supplement work for Harmony? It is not listed on Dr. V's list, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. When compared to Purina's WellSolve L/S it is only 1-2% higher in sugar/starch so it is still in the acceptable range as I understand.

Purina Horse Feeds - NATURE'S ESSENTIALS

Could someone clarify if she would be getting enough/too much selenium if she got 2-2.5 pounds of this feed? (I need to pull out the hay analysis for you guys as well.)
I would feed this and then all fat via oil mixed with alfalfa pellets.
My hay is very high quality 60/40 alfalfa grass mix and Harmony gets about 17-20 pounds a day, more if she appears to need it. She weighs just under 1200 pounds. I cannot feed free choice hay because her companion is a pony and he would explode! Plus, usually if I increase her hay she gains weight so if I went free choice I am assuming she would keep gaining. Her muscle tone is normal- even if she is having issues due to a lack of fat, she does not need to gain a lot of muscle mass like the concern expressed when switching a horse to the EPSM diet for the first time.
     
    03-13-2013, 06:29 PM
  #29
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmony308    
Foxhunter: I could get some pictures, but it will be the weekend before I can do so, I am finishing up midterms this week. She has been seen by 2 different chiros. Her atlas has been out of alignment twice (end of the summer and fall), but they past two times she was adjusted/checked her neck was not out of alignment and her lateral flexion was fantastic. I will work on getting some pictures this weekend.

Wausuaw: Thank you!
I have had the experience with using 2 different chiro's. 1 was good at aligning the front of the horse and the other was good at aligning the back. I wish I could find a chiro that was good at both and I would have another reputable chiro take a look. Also stand behind the horse and did your fingers into the rump so that they lift their back. Does the spine look crooked? How far up the spine is the horse able to lift his back?
This can tell you alot.
     
    03-13-2013, 06:32 PM
  #30
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmony308    
The problem is the price of Progressive brand. If I stay with Progressive this is the cost break down:
2.5 pounds of Progressive ProAd Ultimate x30 days = 75 pounds= 3 bags a month= $126
2 pounds of Progressive Envision Classic x30 days = 60 pounds = one 50 pound bag plus 10 pounds a month = ~$50
3 pounds of alfalfa pellets (we may need more) x30 days= 90 pounds a month = just under 2 bags a month= $32
MSM = ~$4 a month
Actistatin = $65 a month

Total = $277.00 a month

The vitamin/mineral one is a 25 pound bag for $42 ad the fat supplement is a 50 pound bag for $40. Her joint supplements add extra cost, but cannot be cut.

Plus the other half a pound of fat would come from vegetable oil which is not included in that cost.
Also, they hay is $5 a bale on average and that is not in the cost above.

I think I need to switch to using only oil as her fat supplement and use alfalfa pellets for absorption. I am not comfortable not feeding either a vitamin and mineral supplement or a low sugar/starch complete feed. I need to find a different brand for that.
The Progressive food rep said I needed double the normal amount of the Vitamin/mineral supplement than is suggested on the bag to make sure she gets enough amino acids. Thoughts on this? This seems odd to me- he is wrong to suggest that or their feeding instructions on the bag are not accurate. Dr. Beth didn't mention a concern about amino acids and muscle function, that is, in terms of adding extra to the diet.
I don't know where you live but why feed pellets over actual hay? Hay is easier, cheaper and they get the enjoyment of chewing the roughage.
     

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