PSSM/head tilting/hind end lameness- Help me solve this! - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 50 Old 03-13-2013, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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Churumbeque: OH MY!! I hope it didn't appear as though I don't feed hay! The list of feeds you quoted are what she gets as "grain" but she eats 18-20 pounds of 60/40 alfalfa grass mixed hay. I am not a fan of feeding grain actually, I prefer hay and pasture and only give concentrated vitamin and mineral supplements to make sure they don't have any gaps in their nutrition. The pelleted alfalfa was just used in her diet for taste because she doesn't like to eat her other supplements plain. Sorry for the confusion!

I have worked with the only semi-local chiropractors in the area- I'd have to travel an hour or more to use anyone else. I will try getting her to "lift her spine"- I have seen this done before.
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post #32 of 50 Old 03-13-2013, 07:14 PM
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Have you considered slowfeeder haynets?
Slow Feeding Horses on Paddock Paradise Tracks - Paddock Paradise Wiki

That way she can eat little, but all the time, and pony also.
Those feeders/nets do amazing things....my horses never run out of hay, but consumption is down 40%...blimp horse lost weight, hardkeeper gained. And they're happy.

Re the vit/min....check on Purina Enrich or other ration balancers ...gives you all necessary nutrients, a bit mass compared to a 2oz supplement, for adding the oil.
For selenium, I'd see what your hay provides, and would add extra, above of what the vit/min or Rationbalancer provides only if hay is severely deficient.
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post #33 of 50 Old 03-13-2013, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmony308 View Post
Churumbeque: OH MY!! I hope it didn't appear as though I don't feed hay! The list of feeds you quoted are what she gets as "grain" but she eats 18-20 pounds of 60/40 alfalfa grass mixed hay. I am not a fan of feeding grain actually, I prefer hay and pasture and only give concentrated vitamin and mineral supplements to make sure they don't have any gaps in their nutrition. The pelleted alfalfa was just used in her diet for taste because she doesn't like to eat her other supplements plain. Sorry for the confusion!

I have worked with the only semi-local chiropractors in the area- I'd have to travel an hour or more to use anyone else. I will try getting her to "lift her spine"- I have seen this done before.
I understood that you fed hay it just seemed like 50.00 a month was low. I pay 5.00 a bale and
I spend 75.00 per horse and yours looks large. So thinking that sounded like a low number depending on where you live.
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post #34 of 50 Old 03-13-2013, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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$50.00 a month was just my guess.
I pay $5.00 a bale and they weigh on average 50 pounds each.
I just took 18 pounds (average daily feeding) x 30 days = 540 pounds of hay a month divided by 50 (weight per bale) which equals 10.8 bales a month. So 11 bales a month times $5 a bale gave me about $55 a month for her. Of course I'm sure it varies a decent amount so it's probably closer to your cost since I don't weigh every feeding.
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post #35 of 50 Old 03-13-2013, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmony308 View Post
Churumbeque: OH MY!! I hope it didn't appear as though I don't feed hay! The list of feeds you quoted are what she gets as "grain" but she eats 18-20 pounds of 60/40 alfalfa grass mixed hay. I am not a fan of feeding grain actually, I prefer hay and pasture and only give concentrated vitamin and mineral supplements to make sure they don't have any gaps in their nutrition. The pelleted alfalfa was just used in her diet for taste because she doesn't like to eat her other supplements plain. Sorry for the confusion!

I have worked with the only semi-local chiropractors in the area- I'd have to travel an hour or more to use anyone else. I will try getting her to "lift her spine"- I have seen this done before.
Yes, I felt the same as you, especially since my guys are such easy keepers...no grain, just RB and hay. However, the high fat diet changes all of that thinking. But, it's not as bad as I thought once I got them eating the mixture. My 1100lb horse only gets a pound of the TC Senior, a pound of RB and then the Cool Cal, Omega, Oil and Vit E. My 2000lb horse gets double. It sounds like a lot of stuff, but it's not. They eat it up fine now too and seem to eat less hay. They only get about 40lbs a day between the two of them and half is in slow feeder hay bags. You will get there, just get over the hump of frustration and confusion and it will all come together.
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post #36 of 50 Old 03-14-2013, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Harmony308 View Post
The problem is the price of Progressive brand. If I stay with Progressive this is the cost break down:
2.5 pounds of Progressive ProAd Ultimate x30 days = 75 pounds= 3 bags a month= $126
2 pounds of Progressive Envision Classic x30 days = 60 pounds = one 50 pound bag plus 10 pounds a month = ~$50
3 pounds of alfalfa pellets (we may need more) x30 days= 90 pounds a month = just under 2 bags a month= $32
MSM = ~$4 a month
Actistatin = $65 a month

Total = $277.00 a month

The vitamin/mineral one is a 25 pound bag for $42 ad the fat supplement is a 50 pound bag for $40. Her joint supplements add extra cost, but cannot be cut.

Plus the other half a pound of fat would come from vegetable oil which is not included in that cost.
Also, they hay is $5 a bale on average and that is not in the cost above.

I think I need to switch to using only oil as her fat supplement and use alfalfa pellets for absorption. I am not comfortable not feeding either a vitamin and mineral supplement or a low sugar/starch complete feed. I need to find a different brand for that.
The Progressive food rep said I needed double the normal amount of the Vitamin/mineral supplement than is suggested on the bag to make sure she gets enough amino acids. Thoughts on this? This seems odd to me- he is wrong to suggest that or their feeding instructions on the bag are not accurate. Dr. Beth didn't mention a concern about amino acids and muscle function, that is, in terms of adding extra to the diet.
I think Progressive products are great quality products but they are overpriced. Why does the feed rep say you need twice as much amino acids as the rest of the equine population? You are feeding a legume hay blend as the base of the diet. You are already supplying adequate amounts of protein (amino acids) in just your hay. Some quick math. At 13% (average t&a) you're providing 2.2# protein. Add alfafla pellets, another .5#. 2.5# ProAdd is another 1.37. The Envision another .3#. Grand total 4.37# of protein a day. Protein is the most expensive nutrient in the equine diet. I would not be wasting my $$ overfeeding it. If you need more protein, roasted soybeans are high in protein and high lysine for a great price plus has a high fat value.
PSSM horses do not have a muscle building issue inspite of the muscle wasting they exhibit. They have muscle wasting because they can't fuel and use the muscle to keep it tone.

I do think horses need some type of vitamin/mineral supplement as well. Progressive makes a quality loose mineral blend that will only run $.25/day. Rep probably didn't bring that product up.

I think you can provide everything she needs with some wise choices for less than 1/2 of what your current feed bill is.

Envision also switched to 40# bags so that cost is higher.
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post #37 of 50 Old 03-14-2013, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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deserthorsewoman: I didn't quite understand your comment about the Purina product. Could you explain what you meant?
"Re the vit/min....check on Purina Enrich or other ration balancers ...gives you all necessary nutrients, a bit mass compared to a 2oz supplement, for adding the oil."

I have considered the slow net feeders and I would like to get one or two. I am debating where to put it and which type- some of the reviews were bad so I need to find a well constructed one. WAY more natural for them! Downside: our hay is in very tight flakes so that would involve lots of hand pulling apart and fluffing. If I can get my parents to do that I would like to switch (Horses live on my parents farm- I don't feed).

Oldhorselady: I agree that grain is ok if it benefits the horse. I used to feed a lot of it previously. Can I ask is your horse on the TC Senior because she/he needs a senior supplement, for weight gain, for adding fat to the EPSM diet? I'm assuming it is a little bit of each of those. I considered feeding Purina WellSolve L/S, but it says she needs 10 pounds to get all vitamin/mineral and its $30 a bag. The way I understood it is that this feed is designed to provide vitamins/minerals like a RB, but because of the bulk of roughage in it you get more calories and can feed less hay. If this is the only advantage (for my horse) then I would rather just feed the Enrich 12 RB. I am definitely open to adding grain at some point if she needs it or I want to feed less hay.
Also, is the Vitamin E in your grain/RB low and that's why you have a Vitamin E supplement?

Left Hand Percherons:
I agree Progressive is overpriced, at least for a horse like mine it doesn't work well. I don't understand the rep's idea of more amino acids either. He has seen the hay analysis so his recommendation doesn't make sense. Plus, doesn't doubling the RB cause you to over feed vitamins and minerals? Obviously feeding varies by weight, but I was under the impression that 1 pound was sufficient for 1000-1100 pounds.
You are right about the muscle building- I didn't phrase that correctly.

Thanks for your help everybody!
P.S. As if I'm not busy enough figuring out all of these issues, Harmony went and gashed her head open today! We are going to get stitches this afternoon. What a little booger!
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post #38 of 50 Old 03-14-2013, 04:06 PM
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I wasn't sure if you were familiar with ration balancers. From what I hear the Enrich is quite good. Since you feed at least a pound, it gives you "mass" to pour the oil over. A vitamin/mineral supplement, given by the ounce, wouldn't be enough to suck up the oil

Slowfeeder: tight flakes are no problem as long as the feeder "gives". Netting does that, metal grates not. For ease of filling for your parents, I would suggest the Nibble Nets, hung high enough so she can't get a foot in ( if shod. If barefoot, it's no problem). For further ease for your parents I would get big nibblenets who have enough space for two days worth of hay

ETA: for gashes on the head....bubble wrap....

Last edited by deserthorsewoman; 03-14-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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post #39 of 50 Old 03-15-2013, 04:21 AM
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I use a "Freedom Feeder" for my horse and it works very well. I have had it over a year now and it is holding up well. It costs around $35 to $40.

I am sorry you are having health issues with your horse. She is very pretty.
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post #40 of 50 Old 03-15-2013, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Update

Ok, I wanted to give a more complete update on my plan.

Yesterday, when Harmony had to go the vet for minor cut (not my normal vet, but one who has seen her once) we talked a lot about her head tilting. I have really been working to see what is causing it and he said since I already blistered her stifles, injected her hocks and tried chiro adjustments that he would like me to try something less invasive. We will be giving Harmony a low dose of bute for 3 weeks to see if that has any affect on the head tilting and then report back to him. This means unfortunately that for the next 3 weeks we will not be upping her fat intake because we need to be able to distinguish what helps her. I am not very happy about this, but I think we need to proceed.
After the 3 weeks, her fat will be upped to the one pound a day. Then we can judge if that fat increase works miracles in itself. Do you guys have a guess as to how long it would take to see positive changes from increasing the fat? When I begin increasing fat (and assuming my vet analyzes my hay and supports the decision) I would like to stop feeding a ration balancer. (I posted a thread about this in horse nutrition) This being said I would like to feed this supplement:
E-Se-Mag - Horse Antioxidant Supplements from SmartPak Equine

Eventually I would like to try the Equiwinner electrolyte patches to see if that helps anything. I am debating having my vet draw blood to check electrolyte levels next Tuesday.

I will get those pictures for you guys this weekend of Harmony's spine. I know postponing the diet change isn't the best idea, but trying the 3 weeks of bute will allow us to then further investigate the head tilting and have some direction. I will not be working her anymore than I have to during this time since the fat won't be increased.
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