Repeated Sedation
   

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Repeated Sedation

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    08-30-2011, 09:04 PM
  #1
Yearling
Repeated Sedation

Hi,

Ella went through a fence about six months ago and since then I have been treating and bandaging using IV sedation all the time. To begin with we were using 1.2ml of dozadine twice a week then moves onto a cocktail of dozadine, thylacine and something else.

She's been down to .8ml of dozadine for the past few months once a week. I've been attempting to cut the dosage down but once it gets lower I begin having issues. She had a couple of weeks out of bandages and off the sedation, this week is week 3 of being back in them. The sedation is mostly so that I can get the leg spotlessly clean and so that I can ensure firm even bandages. The bandages now are mostly on to reduce scarring so are being left on for a week. The wounds are healthy bandage up to my nose can't smell anything and have left no pressure sores. (there was some dermatitis hence the rest).

So I guess what i'm asking is are there any adverse effects to continuing to sedate her. The vet has cut me down to .4ml for this change and to be honest I'm kinda worried.

The reason she was so high to begin with was the standard .5ml did not touch the sides.

The only major side effect I've noticed is she's becoming quite needle shy any suggestions on how to 'easily' give the IV when she really doesn't like it.
     
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    08-30-2011, 09:58 PM
  #2
Yearling
It sounds as though your vet doesn't think your horse **needs** sedation for medical reasons, even though you prefer to use the sedation for helping you handle her. The vet's response of giving you some meds but not as much meds as you're used to, makes me think he's expecting you to work on training her to stand quietly to have her legs handled now that the injuries are mostly healed. Most horses don't need sedation for cleaning and leg wrapping once the painful phase of the injuries is past.

Edited to add - I've been through this with some of my horses from fence injuries or tendon injuries or other things. It's a long haul and they DO get tired of standing and they DO expect it to hurt which causes problems with them standing. However, when they figure out what the new rules are, for being polite about standing still, I've had good luck getting the job done. My vet didn't give sedation meds to me ever, although we got some Banamine before painful leg dressing changes at the beginning. You might try that....and good luck.
     
    08-31-2011, 01:13 AM
  #3
Yearling
Have been steadily weaning her off the sedation I think the main problem is that I am the only one on the property capable of handling her, so it's been knowing that there's no one who can back me up. Other horses I've always had the option of someone to help out but I am the only allowed near her. I do as much as possible with leg handling and she's fine with me handling them with bandages on or off it's the cleaning she really objects to. She is by farthe most difficult horse I've dealt with and fairly up there for my "trainer".

I am by no means a novice but she had me tearing my hair out. Cut her sedation down to .6 today and it worked, it's probably the 4th time I've tried bringing it down.

Monday night myself and a friend who also happens to be my old instructor are attempting it without. Her work schedule has only just changed to allow this.

I also will not be out there alone and am very concious of taking up the full time trainees time. This is a policy I enforce on everyone anything "risky" ensure someone is around.
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    08-31-2011, 03:05 PM
  #4
Yearling
I think trying it without sedation is a good idea.
I have never met your mare, but I have dealt with many nasty injuries. They are definitely hard to clean and the horse can get very upset. However, if my horse hurt herself (which she did often) I wouldn't bother with sedation unless I knew she was in extreme pain. I considered it a training opportunity. There were times I had a kicking, limping, pissed off mare on my hands, but over time, she realized I just wouldn't give up. Sometimes it took an hour just to get the bandage off and a new one on, but I tell you what that horse stood like an angel after enough of that consistency. Even with her serious injury that took her life, she knew to stand still and that we would help her to the end. It took a while to get her to understand that she didn't have a choice in the matter, but once we did she stood like a champ. That's why I only use sedation when there is a bunch of pain. It can really just cover the problem. Plus I wouldn't use sedation for long as I have been told that it can be more harmful because the horse can't feel the pain therefore they are hard on themselves and can cause more tissue injury. Just a thought.
     
    08-31-2011, 10:18 PM
  #5
Yearling
I am both excited and terrified about Monday night. It was such a toss up in deciding to sedate in the first place. The main argument that convinced me was that if she holds her leg perfectly still I can do a much better bandage that will not slip and will not cause pressure sores. As is they are not moving after a week with no sign of pressure sore.

She did have another wound on her back leg but as it was slightly lower it was much easier to bandage that I managed to do with little difficulty without sedation.

I know that I am relying on the sedation to fix a behavior and I hate that.

I also know if I had 2 hours I could get her done without the sedation but as stated I cannot ask the woman who assists me to take 2 hours out of her day. At the moment it's about 40mins from needle to end.

Again handling her over the bandage is no issues and as a rule she has no major issues with her back legs, I even wrapped a tail bandage over her bandage to check. Theorizing it would be a good execise especially if she objected.

As fir the sedation blocking pain and causing them to worsen injuries at this point it is not an issue. Whilst I know that bute does the same Ella gallops around like a maniac at least once a day, was cleared to ride months ago and shows no remaining soreness. The bandages now are mostly for aesthetic reasons.
     
    08-31-2011, 10:49 PM
  #6
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinella    

As fir the sedation blocking pain and causing them to worsen injuries at this point it is not an issue. Whilst I know that bute does the same Ella gallops around like a maniac at least once a day, was cleared to ride months ago and shows no remaining soreness. The bandages now are mostly for aesthetic reasons.
I'm confused... Why does she have bandages again? Because they look good?(or is that not what aesthetic means?) sorry I'm a little lost. Why would you bandage a horse when they don't need it?
     
    08-31-2011, 11:24 PM
  #7
Yearling
The wounds are still there and whilst they could heal without bandages the bandages are now on to help avoid scarring.
     
    09-01-2011, 05:51 AM
  #8
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinella    
To begin with we were using 1.2ml of dozadine twice a week then moves onto a cocktail of dozadine, thylacine and something else.
I am not familiar with either of these trade names, do you know what the active drug is in these? I was thinking dozadine is probably Xylazine and I am not sure what might be in thylacine (maybe Acepromazine or medetomidine). Xylazine and medetomidine are fairly short acting and would not have much effect after an hour or so (usually last about 40 minutes but some horses are more or less sensitive to it). Acepromazine is a tranquilizer not a sedative but it is often used in combination (usually with xylazine) with sedatives to increase their duration of action. There are side effects with any of these drugs but it is actually safer to use short term sedation every day for a few weeks then it is to keep a horse on high levels of anti-inflammatories like bute. Alpha-2 sedatives (xylazine & medetomidine) can cause serious respiratory and cardiovascular depression but that is rarely seen in healthy horses and there is a reversal available for these drugs. NSAIDs (Bute, Banamine) can cause gastric ulceration and kidney failure if used in high doses for long periods so should be used carefully. Hope that helps.

ETA: if she is dangerous to deal with while treating her wound, sedate her! If you were having the vet come out to do the clean up and bandage change and she was being difficult I guarantee you that they would sedate her every time, it is not worth getting hurt over. You can work on her training issues after the fact!!
     
    09-01-2011, 06:39 AM
  #9
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masquerade    
ETA: if she is dangerous to deal with while treating her wound, sedate her! If you were having the vet come out to do the clean up and bandage change and she was being difficult I guarantee you that they would sedate her every time, it is not worth getting hurt over. You can work on her training issues after the fact!!
Very good point!

Right now deal with the injury. When you are done with that, fix the training issue so next time you can deal with it with out all the sedation.
     
    09-01-2011, 08:56 PM
  #10
Yearling
Dozadine is Detomidine hydrochloride according to google.

She can be quite resistant to the sedation hence the high levels. It's lasting about 40mins to an hour depending on what day it is! Originally I needed longer to bandage which is why we were using so much.

She has had one adverse reaction whilst coming out of sedation she started hyperventilating so on the phone to the vets who suggested she may have a cold coming on, next day runny nose. Essentially the hyperventilating was the sniffles. What happens is the sedation slows breathing and even with a minor respiratory issue that slowed breathing becomes harder, so to compensate they start hyperventilating. Apparently it's not all that common but generally goes away as the sedation wears off.

Whilst I wouldn't say she's dangerous she definitely can be difficult (she's jekyll and hyde, nice ella or bad ella) when she does object she's not kicking out at me but just kicking out, not striking at me just being a sh*t. (still not excusable but preferable) Hence why my major worry is a jarred or sprained wrist.

If Monday works out without sedation then we'll try again and if it works twice I'll start without the sedation but still have it there just in case. Makes such a difference when there's someone to hold her or pick up a leg!
     

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