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Rolkur now banned in Switzerland

This is a discussion on Rolkur now banned in Switzerland within the Horse Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category

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        01-10-2014, 03:22 PM
      #21
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sahara    
    Of course there are people out there that abuse exercises and use them in such a way to harm the horse or 'strong-arm' the horse into a frame they think the horse needs to be in. Then there are those that have brought a horse along on a routine of give and take, slowly and carefully conditioning the animal to encourage self-carriage and elastic, loose movement that glorifies what the horse IS. It is ridiculous to say that a certain exercise is harmful to all horses. Harmful to the green horse that is tight and tense, yes. Harmful to the athlete that has released all the muscles of the topline and is moving in a balanced, relaxed cadence? I doubt it.

    It is like outlawing curb bits because some yahoo broke his horse's jaw in a warm-up pen. Give the same bit to Buck Brannaman and watch a beautiful display of horsemanship.
    This makes worlds of sense to me, and I'm glad some videos were posted to show the difference. I actually just realized that the ranch versatility trainer that I took one lesson from (wish I could've afforded more, that one lesson did us WORLDS of good) was having me use a slight rolkur at times. Never sustained, and never nose to the chest, but the way it was used did encourage lightness. We were working specifically on collection in that lesson and we were pretty dang close, but this helped immensely.

    I was under the impression that the rolkur was nose to the chest like the second video, not also being just slightly behind the vertical. Now that I know, I realized I've used the milder form at times, and correctly it sounds like. I always love learning more about different riding styles and clearing up misconceptions (at least that's how I think the thread ended up).

    The question I have now is how is Switzerland defining the rolkur, then? If your horse is ever seen behind the vertical, ever, at all, are you disqualified? Or does it have to be the extreme version that is actually the problem?
    Incitatus32 likes this.
         
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        01-10-2014, 03:32 PM
      #22
    Super Moderator
    I will admit that it has been quite a few years since I rode FEI levels, but I can remember when ANY horse diving behind the vertical was severely sanctioned and low scores resulted. It was a bad fault that everyone endeavored to avoid.

    But now, it seems to be not only ignored, but it is the norm. You don't see many horses that are not diving behind the vertical, and I see a big difference in how the haunches are affected....and not for the better. Yes, it can accentuate forehand movements, but at a cost, IMO.


    The funny thing is.........here are the USEF rules governing collection......

    Quote:
    6. The position of the head and neck of a horse at the collected gaits is naturally dependent on the stage of training and in some degree on his conformation. It should, however, be distinguished by the neck being raised unrestrained forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll being the highest point with the head slightly in front of the vertical. However, at the moment the rider applies his aids in order to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect the head may become more or less vertical.
    AND, this is the FEI rule;

    Quote:
    The position of the head and neck of a Horse at the collected paces is naturally dependent on
    The stage of training and, to some degree, on its conformation. It is distinguished by the
    Neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. At the moment the Athlete applies his aids to obtain a momentary and passing collecting effect, the head may become more or less vertical. The arch of the neck is directly related to the degree of collection.
    So, say what you will, this is not what was ever intended as a measure of a well trained FEI level horse. Until they go so far as to say that since forced overflexion is safe and the effects desirable and the rules reflect that diving behind the vertical is fine, I will continue to decry the practice. One can see how the haunch has become disengaged here.



    This is one of the many reasons I turned away from such competitions. And, I am not alone.
         
        01-10-2014, 05:34 PM
      #23
    Started
    The places I got my information from where VETS! So you can bring it up with them.
         
        01-10-2014, 05:52 PM
      #24
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Allison Finch    
    I will admit that it has been quite a few years since I rode FEI levels, but I can remember when ANY horse diving behind the vertical was severely sanctioned and low scores resulted. It was a bad fault that everyone endeavored to avoid.

    But now, it seems to be not only ignored, but it is the norm. You don't see many horses that are not diving behind the vertical, and I see a big difference in how the haunches are affected....and not for the better. Yes, it can accentuate forehand movements, but at a cost, IMO.


    The funny thing is.........here are the USEF rules governing collection......


    AND, this is the FEI rule;



    So, say what you will, this is not what was ever intended as a measure of a well trained FEI level horse. Until they go so far as to say that since forced overflexion is safe and the effects desirable and the rules reflect that diving behind the vertical is fine, I will continue to decry the practice. One can see how the haunch has become disengaged here.



    This is one of the many reasons I turned away from such competitions. And, I am not alone.
    This photo and all others I've seen makes me sick - I'm a mild mannered person, but I'd like to thwop that gal off that poor animal and let it run and gallop in the country. I'd want to see this horse and others like it, allowed to just be a horse :)
    HunterJumperShow likes this.
         
        01-11-2014, 03:08 AM
      #25
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Allison Finch    
    I will admit that it has been quite a few years since I rode FEI levels, but I can remember when ANY horse diving behind the vertical was severely sanctioned and low scores resulted. It was a bad fault that everyone endeavored to avoid.

    But now, it seems to be not only ignored, but it is the norm. You don't see many horses that are not diving behind the vertical, and I see a big difference in how the haunches are affected....and not for the better. Yes, it can accentuate forehand movements, but at a cost, IMO.


    The funny thing is.........here are the USEF rules governing collection......


    AND, this is the FEI rule;



    So, say what you will, this is not what was ever intended as a measure of a well trained FEI level horse. Until they go so far as to say that since forced overflexion is safe and the effects desirable and the rules reflect that diving behind the vertical is fine, I will continue to decry the practice. One can see how the haunch has become disengaged here.



    This is one of the many reasons I turned away from such competitions. And, I am not alone.

    That photo is rolkur. It is not essential to do this to your horse to achieve flexability, lightnesss and responsiveness. This is NOT acceptable to me and nor is it nessesary. There have been studies (one was from a notable Vet in Switzerland....I will post as soon as I am able to get the video and diagrams. I am still on dial up back up and cannot bring up the info.....takes FOREVER and wont load.!) Working a horse slightly uder the verticle is not like what one see in this photo. This is rediculous. Tie your head chin to chest and try to exercise/work like that, sure you can but boy you will be sore and miserable.

    When it comes to the famous or the well known ppl will do the "monkey see monkey do" in order to feel like they are part of the defining class or groups.....you know to make them seem defined or in the "in crowd" what is popular (int he equine world: "well the judges like it so I will copy it so I can win too....I want to win, win, win.....heck with what the horse feels or thinks"), you see that in every society, everywhere, in everything (esp in fashion and behavior) and every day. I guess its a good thing I'm not much in a fan to anyone. I have few favorite ppl who I think are smart and sensible and are good teachers and or guides but I don't go gaga over those in upper ranks simply becaue that's whats in now.
    Just because they are famous for what they achieve in does not make them morally correct in such achievments. Famous or the elite are often the ones that begin the most horrid of traditions becaue they have gained the minds of awe aspiring ppl who desire to become the same. I don't buy it easily at all but then again, perhaps its due to my untrusting nature. Rollkur can just roll back to wence it came.
         
        01-11-2014, 04:48 AM
      #26
    Weanling
    OH and for starters to begin the chewing process here is this to begin with

    Rollkur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Here is this, ttake it for wahts its worth. It has good informationa dn a great explation of neck function and mechanics therein
    Hyper-flexion Jean Luc Cornille Article

    Here is one study for those who like to read research studies and all of its technicality. http://www.equitationscience.com/doc...ollkur2009.pdf
    Go to conclusions if you don't want to read all of the information.

    Here is an article stating some of the famous who PROTEST the Rollkur practice. SO no, not ALL of the famous equestrian elite are for Rollkur.
    Rollkur Vs. LDR - a Sporthorse Breeder's Reflection on Hyperflexion - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

    Oh and to correct my mistake the Vet is German not Swiss. Dr. Gerd Heuschmann

    A little more "stuff".

    "Rollkur": Dressage's Dirty Word - London 2012 Olympics: Equestrian Coverage

    Here is aogod book to take a gander at.

    Http://www.amazon.com/Tug-War-Classical-Incorrect-Negatively/dp/1570763755%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAJWUNWFOQULLYMUQA%26tag%3Dearth-ppc-searchresults-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3D1570763755%252526tag%25253Dearth-ppc-searchresults-20
         
        01-11-2014, 04:53 AM
      #27
    Weanling
    GRrrrrrrrrr.....I don't know what happened but I have 3 of the same postings. Good greif. Can a moderator delet 2 of the multiple postings.??
         
        01-11-2014, 08:11 AM
      #28
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ZaneyZanne123    
    GRrrrrrrrrr.....I don't know what happened but I have 3 of the same postings. Good greif. Can a moderator delet 2 of the multiple postings.??
    Done!
    mazza0007 likes this.
         
        01-11-2014, 10:37 AM
      #29
    Trained
    Sorry Zaney,

    Yahoo Voices? Those are ALL opinion articles. Including the opinion stated in the conclusion of the paper you posted. The researcher is showing severe bias. The skill of the riders is NOT quantified and the areas where the tests were run are not exactly meccas for dressage. Let's go to Ohio to ride with such and such is NOT a commonly used phrase. THEN if you read the results, there is no difference in the heart rates or "fear" of the horse when ridden either way. As well one horse actually preferred the R side!!

    Rolkur, like anything, is a training method. It is NOT for every horse, it is NOT for every rider. Give most riders a horse trained well to go in a spade bit, wearing a spade bit and the horse will not go well. It will probably look pretty awful, actually.
    Don't blame top riders for "Monkey See Monkey Do". Do you blame race car drivers for car accidents? Top chefs for oil fires and kitchen fires? People are responsible for their own actions. If you have not been trained in a certain method - do not use it.

    As well, riders do not ride into the competition arena in RK. Just incase that's unclear? It is a training method for a very specific kind of horse in very specific situations. In a calm relaxed environment on a calm relaxed horse (like the testing environment in the study, likely) you're stupid to use it. On a fire breathing dragon in the warm up at the Olympics (where might I remind you, one horse completely lost his marbles and left out the competition arena bucking - also not an RK horse for what it's worth) yeah - RK might be a good thing to consider if you like your breeches white in the ring.
    Horses are athletes. Look at regular athletes. They run with parachutes behind them, drag weights around, and do all these other very extreme things outside of what is required in the competition. Sprinters don't just sprint all day every day. You need to work additional muscles - same with the horses.

    And yes, CH, LB, CD, and others are implicated in the LDR/RK thing. If you're anti RK/LDR these are the folks you're up against.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        01-11-2014, 10:56 AM
      #30
    Trained
    ETA - LDR when obtained without force - yes it's possible. When obtained using force, like anything else, it's not a good thing. But I've seen folks in other disciplines be far more forcible in far more scary bits and the ring steward not even bat an eye.
    But the media isn't blowing up about THAT so, who cares.
    And this rules is very specific to "dressage only" so if the horse wears wear a western saddle or a jumping saddle, the positioning of the head and neck is fine in Switzerland!
    But Christ help us if Adelindes horse gets low in the neck!

    This is just plain and simply bullying IMO. Does anyone on the anti RK side of this even care about dressage? Does it affect you or your horses if all of a sudden dressage competition doesn't exist? How will this be policed? With cell phone videos from non horse people? There is a chance that some non horse person can walk by your house and take a video of you riding, say the horse is spooking and you're having a bad ride, and send it to a non horsey police officer who comes and takes your horse away.
    Look at the implications of the law. It's unfair bullying to anyone in a dressage saddle. It's a free card for - you ride in a dressage saddle. We have to take your horse because it's abused.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         

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