Rolkur now banned in Switzerland - Page 4

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Rolkur now banned in Switzerland

This is a discussion on Rolkur now banned in Switzerland within the Horse Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category

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    01-11-2014, 12:02 PM
Super Moderator
I would be interested to see any plausible evidence that the top British dressage riders are involved in any Rolkurr scandals because I haven't heard or found any.
Carl Hester is based in the area I moved to the US from and rumours like that would soon fly around
Or are you classing working a horse slightly behind the vertical for short periods as being the same as true Rolkurr where the horse has its nose on its chest?
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    01-11-2014, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by jaydee    
I would be interested to see any plausible evidence that the top British dressage riders are involved in any Rolkurr scandals because I haven't heard or found any.
Carl Hester is based in the area I moved to the US from and rumours like that would soon fly around
Or are you classing working a horse slightly behind the vertical for short periods as being the same as true Rolkurr where the horse has its nose on its chest?
This is where I'm becoming confused as well. It's starting to sound like everyone has thei own definition of the term, much like people do with feminism (eg some 'feminists' claim for womens' rights, some for female dominance. It's difficult for one group to fully claim the word, ime). :/
    01-11-2014, 01:50 PM
Super Moderator
Since this rule is almost certainly going to spread through the rest of Europe now they are going to have to give out some really clear ruling on it
If you have a supple forward going horse with a light mouth its actually very easy to get it just behind the vertical without even trying but should be penalized in the actual test IMO because it is a fault - yet it gets ignored by some judges
This is what's currently considered to be acceptable and used by most dressage riders
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    01-11-2014, 03:22 PM
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Sorry Zaney,

Those are ALL opinion articles. Including the opinion stated in the conclusion of the paper you posted. The researcher is showing severe bias. The skill of the riders is NOT quantified and the areas where the tests were run are not exactly meccas for dressage.
True. Actually most things in this world are based on opinion. It is MY opinion that if you shoot yourself with a gun, you will likely get injured, regardless of how good a shot you are.

Let's go to Ohio to ride with such and such is NOT a commonly used phrase. THEN if you read the results, there is no difference in the heart rates or "fear" of the horse when ridden either way. As well one horse actually preferred the R side!!
I would like to see the study that showed ONE horse was more comfortable.

As well, riders do not ride into the competition arena in RK. Just incase that's unclear? It is a training method for a very specific kind of horse in very specific situations.
While a rider may not purposely use RK in the ring, the lasting affects of this training are often painfully obvious with the horse constantly diving behind the vertical during the test. It isn't even being penalized these days. Ridiculous. It is so often seen in the halts in tests at the highest levels IN THE RING...not just schooling

The effects cannot escape being seen in the ring.

In a calm relaxed environment on a calm relaxed horse (like the testing environment in the study, likely) you're stupid to use it. On a fire breathing dragon in the warm up at the Olympics (where might I remind you, one horse completely lost his marbles and left out the competition arena bucking - also not an RK horse for what it's worth) yeah - RK might be a good thing to consider if you like your breeches white in the ring.
Well,if you are using it as a method to control a badly trained/behaved horse, so be it. And, don't say I haven't ridden "fire breathing" high level horses, because you would be dead wrong. I think if I better prepare my horse for the stress of the ring, I am less likely to soil my breeches (although I have had moments when another kind of soiling was close....but I digress...).

Horses are athletes. Look at regular athletes. They run with parachutes behind them, drag weights around, and do all these other very extreme things outside of what is required in the competition. Sprinters don't just sprint all day every day. You need to work additional muscles - same with the horses.
I don't get it. You have to use punishing techniques as a way of getting your horse fit?

And yes, CH, LB, CD, and others are implicated in the LDR/RK thing. If you're anti RK/LDR these are the folks you're up against.
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There was, recently, a really bad photo of Charlotte getting her award and doing a victory gallop. Her horse was very overbent. This is not, necessarily, evidence of RK training. You will always be able to get moments of time captured that will look bad. Does she use RK? I have no idea. Her horses don't show evidence that she does.

A student caught me schooling a horse. I was not aware of the photo and was not trying to look good (so I didn't). I use lots of stretch breaks during my workouts. It allows the horse to relax muscles that have been working hard. But, there is nothing tense, forced or uncomfortable here. It satisfies what I am wanting for the horse, a release.

I have no need for RK as I see it doing much more harm to movement than good. When the dressage world gets over their LOVE of flashy forehand movement and start looking at the haunch again, RK may start to fade from favor, IMO.
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    01-11-2014, 11:26 PM
Thanks for the info. Out here you see it in dressage and but not a lot of English riders out here. A lot ride western. I know a girl who rides with a normal bridle but her horse does the arches head or neck or whatever there bending. I asked her why and she said cause someone showed him in the past.
    01-12-2014, 12:10 AM
Super Moderator
Rollkur is becoming big in the international reining ring. Sadly, it is not confined to dressage any more.

    01-12-2014, 03:12 AM
Anebel: I value your opinion and well lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I will never see rollkur as being an effective training method no matter how it is used and by whom. My mind will not be changed. LDR is not rollkur in my opinion either.
I will always be one of those "classic" ppl (not cruel classic) that beleives that with proper training methods just about anything can be achieved (note I said: Just about.) OH and I did say to take the information for whats its worth. It was something just to chew on.
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    01-12-2014, 04:17 AM
Allison Finch: The photo you posted of you on your grey horse is not Rollkur. He is relaxed and light and seems rather content looking. The picture of the reigning horse is rollkur.

I guess the term Rollkur is getting muddied. Whtn I think of Rollkur I think or see this.:

Those reins are definitely cranked tight.

This is rollkur (the main picture featuring the horse in Rollkur).

FEI Round Table Conference Resolves Rollkur Controversy | eurodressage

This (being slightly behind the verticle) is not.

But I guees its all how one see Rollkur.
    01-12-2014, 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by Jake and Dai    
Thank you very much.
    01-12-2014, 01:57 PM
Super Moderator
Since I couldn't remember Rolkurr being used by dressage riders and instructors in my youth - and amazing though it might seem to some I was actually fortunate in being exposed too and influenced by many - I searched the history of it and it seems to prior to the 80's top dressage riders managed to successfully train their horses without it. The practice of overbending a horse wasn't unheard of but was treated as a short term last resort method for a problem horse where all else had failed
According to the most informative article I found it was the trainer/husband of Anky Van Grunssvenn who decided it would be a great idea to use it as part of a general training system that he claimed was easier for a horse and rider to understand than the traditional ones used in Classical Dressage which required a higher standard of riding and training to accomplish
If riders were able to achieve good results prior to the use of Rolkurr then there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to do so again - and most of them already do
A lot of these things are just shortcuts for people who don't want to put in the hours of work needed to correctly get to the fitness levels and skill levels required for both horse and rider

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