Sensitive Topic, but curious of other ppls opinions
 
 

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Sensitive Topic, but curious of other ppls opinions

This is a discussion on Sensitive Topic, but curious of other ppls opinions within the Horse Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category
  • What is the most treatments of canibalisim in poultry?
  • Canibalisim in horses

 
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    04-30-2008, 12:42 AM
  #1
Foal
Sensitive Topic, but curious of other ppls opinions

OK, I got way carried away responding to poor Dumas'_Grrrl's topic about floating teeth, (and I apologize for the rant) but my reply was more like a topic of it's own and I was curious what people's opinions were anyway, so I made a new topic-

I apologize for the rant, and I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, just a conversation of opinions.
(this was my reply)-

Quote:
The first thing I think when I hear "horses teeth need to be floated every 6 months/year or that people force their horses to live in stalls almost 24/7, or that... I could go on and on" is that it is ridiculous to think that horses need all of the things that people are convinced they do to live. People actually try to teach horses how to be horses.

But then, humans have so altered the way horses live and what they are exposed and put through, their diet being the perfect example, that it makes sense that they to try to compensate.

Just my thoughts. I have absolutely nothing against floating, I don't do it, but if I had a horse that the vet said would benefit from it, I would in a heartbeat.

What I do hate, and hate with a passion, is the horses(not the actual horses, but the fact that it's happening) that are not allowed to be horses. The horses who are kept in stalls 24/7, that are fed ultra concentrated feed and are on a strict regimen of conditioning etc, whose life is a regimen with intermittent exercise and shows consisting of moving in complex patterns and forms in a square/round fence. That, to me, is an unthinkable crime.

And people say "My horse truly loves going to shows, doing whatever their lives center around."

But like in factory farms, where, say, chickens are raised in a dark warehouse with thousands of other chickens where the very floor they walk on burns their skin, you could say that love their once-a-week trip to a 2 sq foot pen outside. Of course they love it.
(I know, I went pretty overboard, I absolutely am not comparing certain owners to factory farms, sorry! But the analogy is correct, even if it's extreme).


I"M SO SORRY FOR THE RANT! I don't ever do this, I got carried away, this is more like something for it's own topic, and I'm not trying to instigate trouble or cause a fight, it's just what I feel.
     
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    04-30-2008, 01:05 AM
  #2
Green Broke
Makes sense..
     
    04-30-2008, 01:14 AM
  #3
Showing
I refuse to keep my horses in 24/7. It's ludacrous, and completely inhumane for the horse.
My horse might come in from 5pm to 8am during the winter months for inddor board (because I'm a wimp) but otherwise they are outside.
I do not feed my horses grain save for little treat now and again, but they are not on grain daily, and will never be; I believe if a horse has good quality hay and a salt and mineral lick, they don't need excess stuff. (Maybe when Maia gets old and needs suppliments for her joints, I might consider it.. but not "just cause")
Horses should be horses. I am looking for a new barn right now, and I want her to live in a field with plenty of space to just be a horse; sure it might be a PITA to walk all the way over a gazillion acres to catch her, but it's worth it for her health and sanity.
     
    04-30-2008, 07:44 AM
  #4
Showing
I agree to a certain extent. I don't think horses should be kept in stalls 24/7, heck mine wouldn't know what a stall looked like Ours are stalled (panels set up in the run in shed) If they are injured, due to foal or any other health issue. Your right, that horses are much healthier if they are free to graze for their meals. That's not always feasable in areas where climate is an issue. I can't move my horses to Florida in the winter so they can graze on grass all year. A lot horse owners are small property owners. You have to rest the pasture if you want to have any grass at all. I have to take them off and put them in a dry lot for half the year. I don't see any harm in that. They still have room to run around, just not a huge open meadow to romp in.
As far as show horses, the ones I have seen are VERY well cared for. They are in much better health then the ones that show up from the wild horse round-ups that the BLM has. Those horses that have to fend for themselves in a "natural" environment have it pretty rough.
I just think any horse that has an owner is a lucky horse. Someone who wants it and loves it whichever way they do it. I feel that way for any companion animal, dogs, cats, rats whatever. They are better off with a humane human taking care of them.
I don't show, but yes, I do think my horse enjoys trail riding. She seems to enjoy the scenery as much as I do. Who knows maybe she just likes the breaks when she can nibble some grass Either way, riding in a trailer for hours and having someone on her back isn't exactly natural, but putting a human in a cubicle all day and eating via a drive up window versus hunting and gathering isnt natural either
I think we have a tendency to place human emotions on all animals. Chicken as you mentioned are really stupid creatures. If the populations that are needed in a breeding/meat facility were allowed to roam free all day they would probably end up eating each other. They are carnivores and will turn to canibalisim in certain environments. I know there is a market for "free range" chickens and eggs, but that's more for our benifit so we feel better about consuming them. You would be surprised what constitutes "free range" just so they can put it on the label.
Sorry, now I'm ranting
     
    04-30-2008, 10:43 AM
  #5
tim
Weanling
Oh good I've wanted a rant... This place has been far too boring lately.

I float my horse's teeth about every year. If we notice he needs it earlier then yes, I will do it earlier. If we notice he's doing OK then it gets put off.

However, I think I'll add another analogy to the list. Not floating your horses' teeth because it's "unnatural" is like not taking your kid to the dentist because he doesn't like it there. It's the wrong reason. Now, I know there are people who don't have healthcare, so I will say this just to cover all bases: if you don't feel like you can afford to be floating your hoses teeth every year, then you probably shouldn't worry about it. There are certainly more important health issues to address for horses before floating.

The treatment humans give their horses comes from a greater understanding of the animal that has resulted from it's captivity. To argue that nature can take the same level of care of horses as humans can is a bit ridiculous. If my horse lived in the wild, he might have been eaten by another animal, starved to death, injured himself and been left behind by his herd, infested by worms resulting in malnutrition which coupled with the lack of teeth floating would mean he would slowly and surely starve to death despite a ready supply of grass.

I don't want those things to happen to my horse. I like my horse. So, I float his teeth, I sedate him when he needs it, I leave him stalled in bad weather, I feed him a scoop of grain morning and night, I tie big heavy blankets on him when it gets cold outside, I shove nasty worming paste down his throat every month, a nice man comes out every 5 weeks to file and cut and nail at his feet, and I do all kinds of other "unnatural" things that improve my horse's quality of life. Even if he can't act like a horse 100% of the time, at least he can still be a horse for 3, 4, 5, maybe even 10 or 20 years longer than he would if left in the wild.

...and that's a rant people.
     
    04-30-2008, 11:37 AM
  #6
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
I refuse to keep my horses in 24/7. It's ludacrous, and completely inhumane for the horse.
My horse might come in from 5pm to 8am during the winter months for inddor board (because I'm a wimp) but otherwise they are outside.
I do not feed my horses grain save for little treat now and again, but they are not on grain daily, and will never be; I believe if a horse has good quality hay and a salt and mineral lick, they don't need excess stuff. (Maybe when Maia gets old and needs suppliments for her joints, I might consider it.. but not "just cause")
Horses should be horses. I am looking for a new barn right now, and I want her to live in a field with plenty of space to just be a horse; sure it might be a PITA to walk all the way over a gazillion acres to catch her, but it's worth it for her health and sanity.
I think we're on exactly the same page:)
     
    04-30-2008, 11:39 AM
  #7
Foal
A horse is a horse of course! :)

Having become a horse owner for the 1st time 3 months ago I have no "formal" equestrian training. I think that works to my geldings' [Henry & DB] advantage. I don't know enough to do anything but let them be what they are - horses. They are pastured 24/7 but have a barn they can wander in and out of at will. I do pellet feed them twice a day because that's what was done by their previous owner. I am also paranoid about health issues the "books" warn about but I am quickly learning not to over nuke that stuff.
The way I see it, Henry is 25 and DB 26 years old; for the most part they know how to take care of themselves. I hope if I pay attention, they will teach me what I need to do to help them live another 5 - 10 happy years. So far the main thing they have taught me is to give them love and attention. I'm finding if I do that everything else - behavior, exercise, health, etc. falls in place.
     
    04-30-2008, 12:14 PM
  #8
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidaloco
I agree to a certain extent. I don't think horses should be kept in stalls 24/7, heck mine wouldn't know what a stall looked like Ours are stalled (panels set up in the run in shed) If they are injured, due to foal or any other health issue. Your right, that horses are much healthier if they are free to graze for their meals. That's not always feasable in areas where climate is an issue. I can't move my horses to Florida in the winter so they can graze on grass all year. A lot horse owners are small property owners. You have to rest the pasture if you want to have any grass at all. I have to take them off and put them in a dry lot for half the year. I don't see any harm in that. They still have room to run around, just not a huge open meadow to romp in.
As far as show horses, the ones I have seen are VERY well cared for. They are in much better health then the ones that show up from the wild horse round-ups that the BLM has. Those horses that have to fend for themselves in a "natural" environment have it pretty rough.
I just think any horse that has an owner is a lucky horse. Someone who wants it and loves it whichever way they do it. I feel that way for any companion animal, dogs, cats, rats whatever. They are better off with a humane human taking care of them.
I don't show, but yes, I do think my horse enjoys trail riding. She seems to enjoy the scenery as much as I do. Who knows maybe she just likes the breaks when she can nibble some grass Either way, riding in a trailer for hours and having someone on her back isn't exactly natural, but putting a human in a cubicle all day and eating via a drive up window versus hunting and gathering isnt natural either
I think we have a tendency to place human emotions on all animals. Chicken as you mentioned are really stupid creatures. If the populations that are needed in a breeding/meat facility were allowed to roam free all day they would probably end up eating each other. They are carnivores and will turn to canibalisim in certain environments. I know there is a market for "free range" chickens and eggs, but that's more for our benifit so we feel better about consuming them. You would be surprised what constitutes "free range" just so they can put it on the label.
Sorry, now I'm ranting
I pretty much agree with you. Things like pasture resting etc, they aren't 100% natural, but without it the horses would be on dirt all year, instead of a part of the year; making a horse live on dirt all year just because you think it's more natural would be ridiculous. We do what we can to compensate and and for the most part it is extremely beneficial to the physical and mental wellbeing of the horses.

The wild horses and BLM mustangs are the other end of the spectrum. They live very hard lives, day in and day out, and I wouldn't want my horse to have to live that way. I've never seen a wild horse that wasn't malnourished and beat up, and by saying that horses should be kept and raised naturally, I don't mean to the extent of wild horses. With simple balance, we can give our horses much healthier and happier lives, without robbing them of being able to act like horses.

The only thing I don't agree with is the chicken thing (which is completely off topic anyway :roll: lol) I am very well aware of the horrible conditions and how so many people are fooled by the "free range" etc marked products, I became a vegetarian years ago when I found out how horrible factory farms are, and I haven't eaten meat since. Yes they are... well, they're omnivores really, but they eat meat like you say, and absolutely will turn to cannibalism in certain environments. But those certain environments are those like they are raised in in factory farms. Every chicken is de-beacked when it's a chick just because the cannibalism is so prevalent that farms would have more dead chickens than live ones. But they're not unintelligent (and I'm not some chicken-lover going on about "oh chickens are so beautiful and smart!" :)). I very much think that chickens act silly and dumb, but their actual intelligence is surprising.
Quote:
Chickens are intelligent animals and good problem-solvers. More advanced than young children, chickens possess the ability to understand that an object, when taken away and hidden, nevertheless continues to exist. And their communication skills are so developed that they use separate alarm calls depending on whether a predator is traveling by land or in the sky. Australian scientists recently discovered that some hens emit high-pitched sounds to signal they have found food. The more they prefer a particular food, the faster they "speak."

"Chickens show sophisticated social behavior," Dr. Joy Mench, Professor and Director of the Center for Animal Welfare at the University of California at Davis, "That's what a pecking order is all about. They can recognize more than a hundred other chickens and remember them. They have more than thirty types of vocalizations."
-taken from http://www.hsus.org/farm/resources/animals/chickens/
     
    04-30-2008, 12:29 PM
  #9
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim
However, I think I'll add another analogy to the list. Not floating your horses' teeth because it's "unnatural" is like not taking your kid to the dentist because he doesn't like it there.
No, I agree with you, like my-
Quote:
Things like pasture resting etc, they aren't 100% natural, but without it the horses would be on dirt all year, instead of a part of the year; making a horse live on dirt all year just because you think it's more natural would be ridiculous. We do what we can to compensate and and for the most part it is extremely beneficial to the physical and mental wellbeing of the horses.
Talking about floating, while the vet says she doesn't need it, I'm not going to float her teeth "just because", but if she needs it, of course I would.
Like blanketing or something, I don't blanket my horse in the winter or put her in a stall at night (I live in NC, so winters aren't really bad anyway), she grows a thick fuzzy winter coat and is perfectly happy outside. She's loose with all the barn and stall doors wide open, and rain or shine, hot or cold, I never find her in the barn. (I'm just talking about my horse, all horses are different.) I don't wrap her up and stick her in a stall "just because". People very much tend to expect that horses prefer the things that humans do way more than is actually true, and that over-coddling is what I don't like.
     
    04-30-2008, 12:30 PM
  #10
Foal
JustDressageIt- oh, and I love your signature, I want to steal it!
     

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