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To shoe or not to shoe.......

9K views 65 replies 23 participants last post by  RoadRider / Rios Dad 
#1 ·
Ok, so we have just had a month of misty damp, rainy weather and Phoenix has developed seedy toe in three hooves. I have had my hoof guy come and cut it all out. Fortunately I got onto it quickly so although Phoenny has a chunk missing out of three hooves it isn't too bad - she is not lame or anything. I treated the initial infection with a paste of vicks vapour rub and copper sulphate, the next day I washed her feet with iodine solution and am now applying Stockholm tar every day. I think I have the infection beat.

I have noticed though that there is a level of chalky brittleness between her hoof wall and the sole of her feet. Every time I ride her on gravel I have to scrape the gravel out and occasionaly larger pebbles get wedged in there too. Obviously this makes her more prone to seedy toe. I have her trimmed regularly and she has never been shod.

I am wondering if it is safe to shoe a horse that is prone to seedy toe? Will having a shoe over that hoof edge help prevent the chalkiness or am I going to end up with seedy toe under the shoe? I have no knowledge of the pros and cons of shoeing. I just want to know if shoeing a horse that gets seedy toe is sensible or a really bad idea!
 
#2 ·
I'd rather not shoe in this instance, but your best bet is to get the opinions of a couple of farriers. Unless I have a hrose that is foot sore without shoes (like the current guy we've got) or is getting badly chipped hooves, I opt not to shoe. Shoeing is expensive, it makes the hooves more brital after having nails bashed into them every few weeks etc. Plus if you getting a chalkiness between the wall and the sole, the nails may end up causing more damage as they do weaken the hoof wall to an extent.
If you can keep a horse unshod, do it. Have a chat to the farrier though, I don't know what your horse's feet are like so can't really give a valid opinion.
 
#3 ·
Other then the expensive part I don't agree with any of this. Nails bashed into them evey few weeks??? 6 little nails driven into the white line very 8 weeks or 2 months is going to do nothing to the integrity of the hoof. It will not make the brittle or weaken the hoof wall.
I have horses that have never been without a shoe in thier 35 years without a problem.
Hot shoe the horse will actually help seal the hoof and protect the foot from getting gravel in the seedy toe.
I run about 1/2 the time barefoot and 1/2 the time shod, depending on the footing and the season.
I prefer barefoot but if the horse is compromised because of footing the shoes go on.
 
#4 ·
I would try really hard to stay away from shoeing. Get a few farriers opinions, most of the time with proper trimming to make the hoof balanced and aligned, it helps alot. Certian products can help, but won't cure anything. Try the product Cleartrax. You will also need to dig out all of the infection.
 
#7 ·
The very wet, damp weather that seems to covered a lot of the U.S. this year causes a lot of hoof problems. Rather than worry about shod v. barefoot, I would concentrate on special hoof care while it is so wet. Many old timers around here use iodine or ACV every day to ward off any of the myriad of bacterial and fungal problems horses get when their feet are wet all the time.
 
#8 ·
I prefer barefoot. Why? Because its healthier for the horse and safer for the human. If you get an ironshod hoof in your head, you might die, but if the horse is shoeless, it dont want to be that big damage if he desides to kick. Healthier because the hoof is breathing and develops itself over time. And you learn a lot about food and training if u have a barefoothorse, cause you have to have more respect for what the horse need... :)
 
#9 ·
And you learn a lot about food and training if u have a barefoothorse, cause you have to have more respect for what the horse need... :)
I don't understand that at all. My first mare, a morgan pony, had hard feet. Trimmed every 3-4 months, no shoes all year round. I sold her to get somthing bigger. My ne horse, a BSP gelding, has very short feet from neclect for months and has to be shoed for a while.
 
#11 ·
I am dealing with a similar situation. I can't seem to keep the wall to be able to grow down before it starts peeling back and breaking off again. This started happening for my horse in September. We were diligent about trimmings and seemed to be doing great .. barefoot. However, 2 days ago he is starting to really tear them apart again. My farrier is coming this week to re-assess him.

I think in my situaion I will either shorten my trimming cycles to every 4 weeks, or some type of GLUE ON shoe. Might my pricey but I will not put nails in his hooves with the way they are now, the whole hoof might just fall apart. So I will discuss my situaion with my farrier but it may be an option for you aswell. Best of luck.

-Kristin
 
#12 ·
Thanks for your input everyone. I have been finding this a very frustrating subject because there are two very distinct camps. I have a barefoot guy I have used for years, I really like his trims, generally I would say he does good work. Ofcourse he firmly believes that shoeing my horse will create more problems. In my region there is one farrier that comes highly recommended who I have spoken to and ofcourse HE firmly believes that shoeing will fix my problem. I just want whats best for my horse.

Maybe I should look at this as a seasonal issue. At the moment we are coming into summer, the ground is hardening up. The tracks that I ride on are becoming rock hard and I have to take Phoenix down a gravel road at the start of each ride. I had been considering shoeing her anyway simply because we do have to spend time on a gravel road and the stones are very sharp. I actually never ride her and prefer to lead her on this particular road. I am wondering if having her barefoot on such sharp stones has been the start of the problem as the stones are so sharp they get wedged between the wall and sole of her feet. Maybe this could be contributing to the chalkiness.

As I said I am pretty on top of the seedy toe infection, it has been treated with copper sulphate, iodine and I am applying stockholm tar everyday. The farrier I would use to shoe will hot shoe, maybe it is worth doing just to see what happens. I can have the shoes removed if it causes more problems right?
 
#13 ·
Thanks for your input everyone. I have been finding this a very frustrating subject because there are two very distinct camps. I have a barefoot guy I have used for years, I really like his trims, generally I would say he does good work. Ofcourse he firmly believes that shoeing my horse will create more problems. In my region there is one farrier that comes highly recommended who I have spoken to and ofcourse HE firmly believes that shoeing will fix my problem. I just want whats best for my horse.

Maybe I should look at this as a seasonal issue. At the moment we are coming into summer, the ground is hardening up. The tracks that I ride on are becoming rock hard and I have to take Phoenix down a gravel road at the start of each ride. I had been considering shoeing her anyway simply because we do have to spend time on a gravel road and the stones are very sharp. I actually never ride her and prefer to lead her on this particular road. I am wondering if having her barefoot on such sharp stones has been the start of the problem as the stones are so sharp they get wedged between the wall and sole of her feet. Maybe this could be contributing to the chalkiness.

As I said I am pretty on top of the seedy toe infection, it has been treated with copper sulphate, iodine and I am applying stockholm tar everyday. The farrier I would use to shoe will hot shoe, maybe it is worth doing just to see what happens. I can have the shoes removed if it causes more problems right?
Anyway you could post some pictures of the hooves?
 
#16 ·
Pics of Phoenix's feet. Hopefully they will give you all something to work with.
 

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#39 ·
Pics of Phoenix's feet. Hopefully they will give you all something to work with.

Holy toledo...those DO NOT look like hooves that have been trimmed less than a week ago! She needs someone to come out and get rid of that excess hoof, and file it smooth...The trim was incomplete, and left too much hoof wall there hanging down. No wonder why she's got white line and seedy issues! She's not able to use her foot the way she should, and everything that gets in there stays there because of the excess space left between her sole and the ground.
 
#20 ·
I disagree with this comment.

I mean that you can have the horse without shoe if you get an educated barefoottrimmer to trim his feet. I you look at the shape, you will see that the hooves are wide and round, just as a barefoothoof should be (at least the front feets). I see also cracks at the bottom on the hoof, but that is because the horse has started to trim his feet by himself.

My best advice for you to get a well-functioning barefoothorse is to gravel up a paddock or a fencing and let the horse walk on this to stimulate the blood circulation in the hoof. Then you will see that the sole are getting more concave over time and he will be usable on all substrates.
 
#24 ·
After seeing the pictures they really don't look THAT bad (not as bad as my horse's atleast). How far in between do you get your horse trimmed? I would shorten the cycle some. At this point I see no need for shoes. I would soak in either Clean Trax or White Lightning for 45 minutes and then soak them again the next week, making sure to kill all bacteria.

Is your horse pastured 24/7 or able to come in a dry stall at some point? If so I would diligently clean out the hoof, and pick out EVERYTHING in those crevices, apply some thrushbuster or something similiar aswell. Let them dry out in clean shavings for atleast some time before they go out in the mud again.

Best of luck with your horse.

-Kristin
 
#28 ·
hey Equestriun sorry to be ignorant, is white line disease another name for seedy toe? If so the answer is yes she did have it. The pic below is the hole in her back foot which my foot guy cut out last week.

The chinks you hopefully can see in the sides of her feet in the previous pics are caused by stones getting lodged in between the hoof wall and the softer tissue, I know this is happening because I am having to dig them out which of course creates a bigger hole. Stones have been lodged in and they have forced the wall of the hoof out causing a crack which due to the weather lately has been a perfect breeding area for seedy toe. I know this is happening because I am having to dig them out which of course creates a bigger hole. This is the reason I am contemplating shoes.

By the way Phoenix had her feet trimmed 5 days ago. So you guys think the job wasn't done well enough? Be honest. It is bloody hard to find a qualified barefoot trimmer, most of those who do the job, including my regular guy are self taught. As for the guy that I get some people think he is the bees knees and others think he does a crap job. I don't feel that I have the knowledge to be able to judge his work. My horse isn't lame so I'm ok with what he does. But feel free to critique his workmanship.
 

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#31 · (Edited by Moderator)
I will call the farrier tomorrow (monday) and get this sorted. Thanks Rioasdad.
She needs help and they will cut the entire area out until they get past the infected area then they will shoe the foot and she will remain shod until it grows out.

If you want really good advice go to the farrier forum and post the pictures there. They will give you great advice.
I have been shoing for 23 years and I haven't run into one that bad yet. I have delt with seedy toe but that is way beyond a normal seedy toe. I can post links tomorrow on white line??

Just go here and read a few posts on white line
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5
 
#32 ·
Ooops, sorry Riosdad my bad! I had an objective look at the pic I just put up and realized the hole and area surrounding it looks like the black pit of hell and looks like an abuse case. It isn't actually as bad as it looks, I have caked stockholm tar in where the seedy toe has been cut out and slathered it all over the surrounding area which is why it looks so bad.

I have to stress the infection has been cut out, Phoenix showed no discomfit when going through the process so it wasn't in sensitive tissue also she is not lame or showing any sort of discomfit at all. Maybe I need to retake that pic because it looks horrid and shocking! Trust me it isn't as bad as that picture looks!
 
#34 ·
I hope you know what you are doing? All the pictures you posted are of a trim after about 5 days? To me it looked like a horse in need of a trim, not one freshly done.
What you call seedy toe to me looks more like white line disease??
What is white line disease? How does it affect the lamini, the coffin bone, rotation??
How is it compared to flesh eating disease??
 
#35 ·
Kiwi, it's not ignorant because your trying to help your horse by learning. The answer is yes, they are the same things. In that picture I can see it much better. The thing with the farrier, do you ride him often, does your farrier know?

The farriers around here if they know your horse is just a pasture pet will just do a half *** trim vs. a riding horse that actually needs a perfect trim.
 
#38 ·
I have a farrier coming to do Phoenny's feet. I have decided to get her shod simply because of the quality of the stone on the metal road by our house. The problems that I have shown in pics have occurred where a sharp stone has lodged between the hoof wall and softer tissue. Shoeing will prevent this from happening hopefully. Also the farrier will hot shoe someone said that this will seal the hoof. After a Good trim, a sear and a pair of shoes I think she will be fine.

Attitude05 I don't blame you for being sceptical! Like I said in that pic the Stockholm tar makes the hole looks like it goes to China and the area around it look rotten as well, you don't know me but believe me when I say it isn't as bad as the photo makes it look - honestly! I will repeat myself - she is not lame or uncomfortable, I wish I had pictures of her running around chasing the pig in her paddock yesterday. Definitely not lame. Thank you for your concern, if I saw that pic on the forum I would think the worst also.
 
#40 ·
I appreciate your analasis of the trim job on my horses feet.

Riosdad asks do I know what I am doing..hmmmm. Well I knew enough to recognize the seedy toe. I knew enough to get it seen too and I know enough to treat the areas every day with preventatives. I knew enough to ask for help and advice from people who know better than me. Do I know how to trim a hoof, I confess no I don't. I have been paying a "proffessional" $30 bucks every five weeks because I don't know how to trim. Do I know enough to recognize a **** job when I see it, know I don't. Am I going to learn - damn right I am.
 
#44 ·
The guy who has been doing my trimming is SUPPOSED to be trained in barefoot techniques. I am paying $200 to have a master farrier from another part of my region who is highly recommended, to come and do Phoenix's feet. I am absolutely gutted that I have been paying someone in good faith to look after the welfare of my horses feet and now I feel like a ****.

I know that Phoenix isn't lame and I am sure that no long term damage has been done but I still feel like a very bad horse owner.
 
#45 ·
The guy who has been doing my trimming is SUPPOSED to be trained in barefoot techniques. I am paying $200 to have a master farrier from another part of my region who is highly recommended, to come and do Phoenix's feet. I am absolutely gutted that I have been paying someone in good faith to look after the welfare of my horses feet and now I feel like a ****.

I know that Phoenix isn't lame and I am sure that no long term damage has been done but I still feel like a very bad horse owner.
There is no permanent damage done and a good farrier will put you right back on track. Your last trimmer was not doing a good job and that could cause the problem in the first place.
 
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