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Snickers and the mysterious hind end saga

This is a discussion on Snickers and the mysterious hind end saga within the Horse Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category
  • Snickers epsm
  • Epsm snickers

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    02-25-2013, 10:56 PM
  #81
Trained
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Knf...e_gdata_player
Basic how to
You need to try a little how far apart you want the knots, so the holes don't get too big/small.
With the strings, it will not be very long, so your best bet is make two parts, door width, and mend them. Then take 3 strings and braid them, as the draw string to close it and hang it up on. Ta-daaaaahhh....done
     
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    02-26-2013, 07:12 AM
  #82
Yearling
I hope you get an answer soon. My mare had EMND, and was a possible candidate for PSSM. Even though she had never tied up or anything. She had muscle tremors (only saw them once) but that was due to her EMND.
I thought PSSM and EPSM were the same thing just different acronyms?
     
    02-26-2013, 07:13 AM
  #83
Yearling
I hope you get an answer soon. My mare had EMND, and was a possible candidate for PSSM. Even though she had never tied up or anything. She had muscle tremors (only saw them once) but that was due to her EMND.
I thought PSSM and EPSM were the same thing just different acronyms?
     
    02-26-2013, 12:37 PM
  #84
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Army wife    
I hope you get an answer soon. My mare had EMND, and was a possible candidate for PSSM. Even though she had never tied up or anything. She had muscle tremors (only saw them once) but that was due to her EMND.
I thought PSSM and EPSM were the same thing just different acronyms?

I just figured out that EPSM and PSSM are the same as you said. I was under the impression that they may have been two seperate, but related things...but I was wrong.

Army...how do you supplement vit E? I'm not sure if she gets enough with the ration balancer or not now. Snickers has never tied up or had muscle tremors either. After my really observing her and learning much lately, she looks like she has a combination of fibrotic myopathy with locking stifle. She is actually very controlled under saddle, more so as to when she is just running around. However, I don't have her cantering or anything either. I would not ever ride her down a steep trail either. I witnessed her from behind yesterday walking down a steep gravel road. Her fetlocks would look like they would pop and then drag with each step at times.

Desert.....I was going to attempt the hay bag today, however, the original ones I ordered are on back order and so I found a local tack store that has them instead. I'm going to get them today....same ones, the nibble nets.
     
    02-26-2013, 03:09 PM
  #85
Trained
Great!
Since you mentioned locking stifle and fibromyopathy again.....I'm wondering, seriously, if it would help her to square her hind toes. What it does, and why it helps with LS, is, it makes her come off the foot before the leg is fully stretched, which is the moment when the ligament catches on the patella in a true LS horse. It just might be worth a try and for sure doesn't hurt, it'll grow back.
For FM I read feeding extra magnesium is helpful. People use mag for muscle cramps and such, so it makes sense.....I also got Thermaflex liniment for Snipper, to massage the scar tissue on her butt. Thermaflex deep-heats tissues. But that wouldn't do much for Snickers, I guess.....
     
    02-26-2013, 08:58 PM
  #86
Started
Here is an email from Dr. Valentine today....

Lisa, I just checked out the you tube walk/trot video and this looks just like so many EPSM horses I have worked with. It has served me well to say “anything unexplained about the hind end of a draft related horse is EPSM until proven otherwise.” She has that slightly stiff “swing from the hip with little hock or stifle bend” that is very common in EPSM horses. At a trot she looks “pony gaited.”

So, no matter what the test results I definitely recommend diet change. I suspect that you will find you have more horse than you thought, with more energy (I hope this is OK!), and I’m betting you’ll be eventually able to canter along as well as walk and trot.

Definitely let me know. And keep videotaping as that is a great way to see changes.

Beth V

Desert....Well, the haynets are being ordered at my local tack shock now...they ran out of them. So, I attempted to modify my big hole ones. Not sure how much it did though. I will attempt making some for fun.

I brought up the square toe with my farrier and he, at this point, disagrees. He has done a really good job for me so far in keeping them both very sound. So, for now, I will leave it as it is. I totally get what you are saying though.

I bought vit E today and I'm thinking about the Mag. Just wondering if they are already getting what they need in the ration balancer? I have to look at the label again and hope I don't get too confused.
     
    02-26-2013, 09:17 PM
  #87
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhorselady    
I just figured out that EPSM and PSSM are the same as you said. I was under the impression that they may have been two seperate, but related things...but I was wrong.

Army...how do you supplement vit E? I'm not sure if she gets enough with the ration balancer or not now. Snickers has never tied up or had muscle tremors either. After my really observing her and learning much lately, she looks like she has a combination of fibrotic myopathy with locking stifle. She is actually very controlled under saddle, more so as to when she is just running around. However, I don't have her cantering or anything either. I would not ever ride her down a steep trail either. I witnessed her from behind yesterday walking down a steep gravel road. Her fetlocks would look like they would pop and then drag with each step at times.

Desert.....I was going to attempt the hay bag today, however, the original ones I ordered are on back order and so I found a local tack store that has them instead. I'm going to get them today....same ones, the nibble nets.

Look at your balancer and let me know how many UI's she's getting daily. Also, (VERY IMPORTANT) is the scientific name. Does it start with a D-ALPHA-...
Or does it start with DL-ALPHA-....
D-ALPHA-TOCOPHERYL (last word can be slightly diff,) is the natural form of vit E. If your feeding synthetic, your probably just wasting your time and money.
Natural vit E is EXTREMELY important. It's one of those vitamins that can't really be replicated in a way that makes it effective. Horses getting synthetic vit E only get about half the UI's as it says they will. Ask Dr. Beth and see what she thinks maybe?
I THINK a normal horse should be on about 1,000 UI's daily.
Since my horse developed EMND, she will be on at least 2,000 UI's daily for the rest of her life. And maybe even more, a lot more. So that is one disease that you want to prevent, and it's incredibly easy to do so!!!
Also worth noting....vit E has been known to play a huge role in horses with neuro problems. :) :) :)
     
    02-26-2013, 09:35 PM
  #88
Showing
Chicks sells the small mesh hay nets, for less than $9 each. Are you familiar with kissing spine? The closest comparison is low back pain in humans. I've seen people with low back pain walking in a peculair fashion in an effort to reduce the pain. This generally occurs in shorter backed horses.
     
    02-26-2013, 09:36 PM
  #89
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhorselady    
Here is an email from Dr. Valentine today....

Lisa, I just checked out the you tube walk/trot video and this looks just like so many EPSM horses I have worked with. It has served me well to say “anything unexplained about the hind end of a draft related horse is EPSM until proven otherwise.” She has that slightly stiff “swing from the hip with little hock or stifle bend” that is very common in EPSM horses. At a trot she looks “pony gaited.”

So, no matter what the test results I definitely recommend diet change. I suspect that you will find you have more horse than you thought, with more energy (I hope this is OK!), and I’m betting you’ll be eventually able to canter along as well as walk and trot.

Definitely let me know. And keep videotaping as that is a great way to see changes.

Beth V

Desert....Well, the haynets are being ordered at my local tack shock now...they ran out of them. So, I attempted to modify my big hole ones. Not sure how much it did though. I will attempt making some for fun.

I brought up the square toe with my farrier and he, at this point, disagrees. He has done a really good job for me so far in keeping them both very sound. So, for now, I will leave it as it is. I totally get what you are saying though.

I bought vit E today and I'm thinking about the Mag. Just wondering if they are already getting what they need in the ration balancer? I have to look at the label again and hope I don't get too confused.
Well, she basically said what we assumed...change diet and you might not need to do anything else.
Pretty soon you'll be complaining and posting a new thread" how to calm an overly lively draftX"....
And by all means, go by what your farrier says. It was just an idea and probably wouldn't even do anything anyway
Mag....the RB will probably take care of it, but it wouldn't hurt asking Dr. Valentine about it when you get a chance
     
    02-26-2013, 10:12 PM
  #90
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Army wife    
Look at your balancer and let me know how many UI's she's getting daily. Also, (VERY IMPORTANT) is the scientific name. Does it start with a D-ALPHA-...
Or does it start with DL-ALPHA-....
D-ALPHA-TOCOPHERYL (last word can be slightly diff,) is the natural form of vit E. If your feeding synthetic, your probably just wasting your time and money.
Natural vit E is EXTREMELY important. It's one of those vitamins that can't really be replicated in a way that makes it effective. Horses getting synthetic vit E only get about half the UI's as it says they will. Ask Dr. Beth and see what she thinks maybe?
I THINK a normal horse should be on about 1,000 UI's daily.
Since my horse developed EMND, she will be on at least 2,000 UI's daily for the rest of her life. And maybe even more, a lot more. So that is one disease that you want to prevent, and it's incredibly easy to do so!!!
Also worth noting....vit E has been known to play a huge role in horses with neuro problems. :) :) :)
Oh thank you for that information! I had NO idea about the vit E....or anything else dietary really....it gets so confusing. I will have to look at the bottle tomorrow. It is at the ranch.

She has been on a pound and a half of Nutrena Empower Balance for about a year. After reviewing the information provided by FeedXL, and looking at the Purina Enrich 32, I thought it was better to change over to the Purina. So, she is getting half and half right now to change over. Here are the values from the websites:

Purina Enrich 32:

CRUDE PROTEINMIN32.00%LYSINEMIN2.70%CRUDE FATMAX5.00%CRUDE FIBERMIN5.50%CALCIUM (CA)MIN2.85%CALCIUM (CA)MAX3.85%PHOSPHORUSMIN1.60%COPPER (CU)MIN185PPMSELENIUM (SE)MIN1.50PPMZINC (ZN)MIN500PPMVITAMIN AMIN24000IU/LBVITAMIN EMIN500IU/LB


And then the Nutrena Empower Balance:

NutrientLevelCrude Protein30.0%Lysine2.2%Methionine0.6%Threonine1.2%C rude Fat5.0%Crude Fibermax. 8.0%Dietary Starch*max. 8.0%Sugar*max. 6.0%Calcium3.0% - 3.5%Phosphorus1.5%Copper250 ppmZinc750 ppmSelenium2.5 ppmVitamin A18,000 IU/lbVitamin D1,800 IU/lbVitamin E600 IU/lbBiotin1.5 mg/lb
* NSC (Non-structural Carbohydrates) = Dietary Starch + Sugar

I really appreciate all the help I can get to get this all squared away. Thanks again!
     

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