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Super angry canter + is one of her legs crooked?

7K views 52 replies 18 participants last post by  Blue 
#1 ·
Hi all,

I have a 5 year old paint cross mare that suddenly has quite a bit wrong with her and I'm not really sure where to start. Some background-

I bought her in March 2015. Although I did not have a PPE done, I went with my trainer and we did flex her and make sure she was sound before we bought her. She was totally sound and behaviorally an angel until the end of June. In July, I moved her to a new barn that was closer. She was stalled next to a four month old filly and it made her absolutely crazy. I had her vet checked and she said her behavior change was purely hormonal. She had started bucking and pinning her ears when I asked her to do anything, spooking at stupid stuff and generally just being hot and unreasonable.. Completely different horse.

I forgot to mention I had been trying to sell her but couldn't really show her to people with her acting crazy. I told someone who was interested why she was acting this way and that they could take her on trial for a month and see how she does. So they took her to a new barn and she was perfect again, cool and calm and bombproof, back to her old self. They really wanted to buy her but she failed the pre-purchase exam. I got her back last Monday and now I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with her.

I am quite certain she was not lame or even ouchy when I put her on the trailer to go on trial. I had lunged her the same day and did not notice anything. I talked to the vet who did the PPE and they sent me the write up on it. She said she was head bobbing at the trot when turning and she displayed discomfort when she pushed on the tendons on her front legs. She was basically getting at that her tendons are bad. She said her front leg was crooked. I will attach some pictures of her legs. Sometimes it seems like she toes in on one leg, but I can't tell if it's just the way she stands? Most of the time they're straight. Even if she did toe in a bit, would that really cause such an issue with her tendons? And she's only five years old, only broke at 4 and hasn't done anything strenuous. I had a gelding that was extremely pigeon toed on both front feet and he had no soundness issues. I see what she means about her leg looking crooked, but I always thought it was her coloring. the way her sock & the dark point meets gives off the illusion that her leg is crooked.

When I got her back Monday she was moving fine. I hopped on her and she did great except that she is still absolutely ****** at the canter. Ears back flat on her head and charging around. When I tried to slow her down she broke to a trot and turning made her buck. i asked the people who had her on trial if she did this while they had her. They said she had her ears pinned but no bucking. The angry cantering is what she was doing at the barn in July with the filly, so I had figured it was because she was hormonal. But since she is doing it now without the baby around, I'm thinking she's hurting.

I will attach videos of her lunging yesterday. She obviously doesn't look totally lame, but if you look you can see she is not moving properly. I am horrible at trying to figure out which leg or hoof is the problem, so looking for some opinions and suggestions. The barn owner thought she might have a stone bruise and thinks it's in her front left hoof, but that doesn't match up with the vet's analysis. She also said one of her heels is lower than the other...She suggested I put shoes on her yesterday but I don't want to just mask the problem. I will be having my vet take a look at her, I just need some help trying to pin point the issue before I have a huge vet bill from testing everything. I don't want to have a vet out to tell me the same thing the other one did. Do I need x rays, a farrier, a chiropractor? All three? In what order?

She has always been an easy keeper and barefoot so I'm just struggling trying to figure out what it is. And with so many people telling me different things it's hard to know where to start!

Some photographs of her and a video of her lunging. I'm sorry some of the pics are sideways, I'm not sure how to fix it :icon_frown:

 

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#2 ·
She is definitely not quite right in the front. It looks like it could be both legs but it seems more pronounced in her right front to me. It's a bit hard to tell from your videos though, it would be better to see her lunged on hard and soft ground as well as trotting away straight and coming back straight. Sometimes hind end lameness can manifest in the front as well depending on the problem.-

The fact that you did not do a PPE is concerning because now you have no baseline to build off of. If you had noticed something in the PPE but had flexion results and x-rays you could be comparing them to now to see how her leg is actually changing as she gets older. When I look at a horse if I can see older x-rays it's very helpful so I can see if something has progressed or not, that way if they have a small blemish but it hasn't changed much and the horse doesn't present as lame I'm not very concerned.

You need to decide how much money you are willing to pump into trying to get this sorted out. If you and your vet really think the bad behavior is a result of hormonal problems you may need to try her on Regumate or Depo. I would at a minimum have your vet do a full lameness exam, flexions, lunging, and examination, and then decide together if you want to do x-rays or ultrasounds.
 
#4 ·
I think she may be a little off in the right front, but I am not certain as she never relaxed into her trot which would allow it to be easier seen.

On a side note and none of my business, she may be a little pissy because you are continuing the pressure. Maybe allow her to make the mistake (breaking down her gait) and then add pressure so she becomes responsible for maintaining the gait. Then I believe she would relax a bit.

I only say this because I have made that same mistake before and it tends to make a younger horse pissy.
 
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#5 ·
Your horse does appear like she may be off on the right front, but it is very hard to tell without a better evaluation.
So, start with your vet and a lameness exam.

These exams aren't all-or-nothing affairs. They are step-by-step evaluations to help pinpoint the area and cause of pain by determining "generally" what hurts (ex: the right front leg) and then working to narrow down where it hurts and then perform other diagnostic tests on that particular area as needed. The vet will start by watching your horse move and by performing flexion tests, as well as looking for neck or back pain. Flexion tests can help to determine what part of the leg is painful, but they aren't 100% accurate so your vet may recommend performing regional anesthetic blocks to help narrow down the source of pain before performing x-rays or ultrasound, or he may feel confident enough to move onto to the x-rays or ultrasound without blocks. At every point of the exam, you can ask about costs and determine what is an acceptable plan based upon what has been discovered, possible causes and treatment options, and how much information the next step will add vs. the cost of that next step.
 
#6 ·
Is it just me, or does she look a little swaybacked in those pictures? Very odd for her age. Do you have any idea if the saddle that was used on her during trial fit her, or how heavy the person was that trialed her?

She definitely is stiff and bracing her back. I'd bet that has less to do with her not having been trained to 'round' as they say in dressage, and more to do with her being out of place or simply having pain somewhere.

Personally, if it were me, I would start with the chiropractor. Many a time with my own mare I spent money trying other things, then finally did the chiropractor last and turned out that was all that was needed. However, I do have a good chiropractor. You want to be careful who you use, as I've heard of others making the problem worse, not better.

If what I read was correct, that she did not have these problems until after coming back from trial, I'd bet that bad riding, ill fitting tack, or a small accident has put her out of place and caused this.

That would be my personal call-try the chiropractor first before spending $1000 on lameness tests and x-rays and so on.

However, that is just my humble experience. I certainly am no vet and certainly don't know everything there is to know.
 
#7 ·
A vet should be consulted before calling the chiropractor---always! Many can attest to the damage caused by chiro adjustments because a chiropractor does not have the medical training that a vet does and will miss injuries or medical issues. My hubby would have been wheelchair bound if I hadn't insisted he go to our PCP before letting the chiropractor adjust him----the chiro said his back was simply out, but what he has is a herniated disc and a bulging disc---any adjustment would have severely injured the spinal cord!


Call your vet for a lameness exam, following @Ryle detailed explanation as to how much money and time you want to put into this horse.
 
#12 · (Edited)
While I agree the vet should do a lameness exam most chiropractors ARE vets.

What the PPE says is her back is sore as well as her front tendons (upon palpation which seems a little weird) and that she was 2/5 lame in both fronts. No mention of head bobbing in the write up- and if she's lame on both fronts I would not expect head bobbing....maybe the poking/prodding/flexions made things worse?

What I see is a horse that is not head bobbing and is moving evenly but also isn't moving right, esp with her conformation and saying she doesn't normally move like that. I am glad your vet is coming out.

I would show your vet the write up.

I definitely don't see her leg being crooked and it doesn't sound like the vet was actually saying that in the write up.

My guess is also a secondary lameness related to her back, I'd definitely be looking more at the back thing, I'm surprised you didn't mention that. I would also look into tick diseases if that is even a remote possibility where you are.

Depending on how the vet visit goes I would also have a good veterinary chiropractor out.
 
#8 ·
I do not think this is a front end issue, not at all. it's her HIND that is the problem, and likely her sacroilliac area. she has a bit of a goose rump, or bump of somekind , righ where the spine joins the sacrum. she also runs with her head up, VERY stiff , back hollowed out and does not reach under very far, and this is more obvious in the right rear. she is more reluctant to take the right lead canter , too.

I would look at her BACK, HIPS and right side in particular.

she seems like a really cute horse. don't give up on her yet.
 
#11 ·
I agree with this assessment. I don't see crooked legs or imbalances in front. The soreness in front may be from her compensating for a hind end issue. Like @tinyliny, I see a hunter's bump which may be a sacroiliac subluxation. Although the vet did not say she was tender right at the sacroiliac area, the exam said she is sore in the lumbar area which could also be related to subluxation. I'd look at older pictures of her to see if this is a new problem. It might have happened when the young horse was stabled next to her, if she slipped or kicked hard in the stall. It also could have happened instead at the potential new owner's place, especially if they used her on hills or doing work she wasn't fit for yet.
It could be a flare up of an old injury to the area (in which case a chiropractor would probably help most), or a new injury (in which case time off work may be best).

Identify and Treat Equine Sacroiliac Problems from Practical Horseman .com | Practical Horseman Magazine
 
#9 ·
I am certainly no expert at the lameness game but I find it helpful to slow the videos down on You Tube and then you can really process stuff better. To me (who is again no expert) I didn't think she looked unsound. I saw a typical tense horse that doesn't know how to stretch over the top line and is carrying herself in a tense and bracey manner without bend laterally or longitudinally. Stiffness does not always indicate pain, but it can. I would certainly have a vet check her out though. Good luck!
 
#10 ·
Thanks everyone! She is a really great horse, so I hope it's nothing serious. The first pic of her isn't great, she really is not as swaybacked as the pic makes her look. She may have a little dip but nothing extreme. I'll put a better pic in :) I am a broke college student so having multiple vet visits isn't going to be easy for me but I'm definitely willing to put in the money. I love this horse and not going to hand her off to the first person I see. Especially without knowing exactly what is wrong with her. I won't have her end up in an auction or something.

here are some screen shots of the PPE results. The vet will be out this week, hopefully can give me more info as to what might be wrong. But figured I would post these. Some of you say she doesn't look off but she is...I can't pinpoint really what it is either, but she does not move like this normally. She usually has a beautiful extending trot and she just looks like she can't extend that far. Also, she actually has had professional training and when asked under saddle she will collect and lift her back. She will relax into it after a while on the lunge. She always starts out trotting around with her head in the air unless i have a surcingle on her.
 

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#13 ·
No, most equine Chiropractors are NOT vets, at least in any areas that I'm familiar with. In this state, there is only 1 vet who is also a chiropractor----he specializes in Sports Medicine, and when we consulted him, he suggested a BOT sheet over chiropractic adjustment for our gelding although an equine chiro was determined that he needed an adjustment. The horse had a shoulder injury to the muscles, so there was nothing to adjust!
 
#14 ·
ACVA alone lists 8 in KS. 3 DCs and 5 DVMs. Shrug.

I would never recommend ANYTHING by someone not certified. But I've seen hands on a top level DVM chiro diagnose ulcers and GI issues during a chiropractic session, give herbal treatments and a short term rx, AND seen the results. No arguing that... And that's the other bonus is a vet is an actual vet and can perscribe things and do a lot more then just adjust the horse.

I also know a DVM/chiro that transferred from a business as a human chiro.

Check in with the vet but then there's no reason not to see a qualified chiropractor.
 
#15 ·
Yes, while a few vets include alternative practices, like acupuncture and Chiro into there qualifications, it certainly is not true of either human or equine chiros in Canada, in general that they are also DVMs.
Thus, I would use a good equine vet first, and if they are also a chiro, or think the horse should be referred to a chiro, then that would be the next step
I am not going to get into the entire chiro and mainstream medical debate, except to say, I have seen some pretty far out things, as a human lab tech, done and advocated by human chiros Some around here, got into, promoted the entire 'live blood analysis, anti vaccine bandwagon, both of which fall under "Bad science'
 
#16 ·
Getting back to the horse, she certainly moves bracy, and her neck shows that fact, of her having moved hollowed out for some time, by the muscling on the under side. She has along weak back, with that hunter;s bump, so not surprising that has has back pain
Whether front legs became sore, due to compensation type movement , because of the back end being sore, or visa versa is rather like the chicken and egg scenario
 
#17 ·
I am also no expert in lameness/movement questions, but i am with the back end people. She begins to canter with her front end first, and her back legs seem reluctant to join in. On the right rein, it was at least two strides behind. She also shambles into a trot back end first, and while cantering, she puts in a few really short, almost bunny-hop steps as well.

But what a cutie, and so friendly!
 
#18 ·
The lameness report, does show the horse to be sore in both front legs, so whether that resulted because of back sourness, or caused back soreness, with the hrose trying to protect those front legs, needs further veterinary work to decide
Smilie got sore in her back, the months after that bad incident of mechanical founder, as she shifted weight back,trying to keep it off those front feet
 
#19 ·
She falls into the canter out of forward motion, and is choppy in front
A horse can't start to canter in front, as the first stride of a canter, is in back
The lameness report does indicate that she is sore in both front legs. She thus could have tried to compensate with her back end, causing back soreness, or, back soreness could have had her use those front kegs incorrectly.
Further lameness exams are required
 
#20 ·
So, not arguing, Smilie; as I said, I am no lameness/movement guru, but I am confused. What am I looking at?

I slowed the videos down to .25 speed, and watched them again, and to me, it really looks as though her front legs begin the canter movement at 1:16 minutes, while her hind end doesn't start until 1:17. Then again, going the other direction, she seems to start cantering in front at 1:37, and behind at 1:38.

But I could very well be mis-interpreting what I am seeing; I'm gonna check out some sound-horse videos, and THEN I'm gonna start working on the taxes. Which is what I am supposed to be doing...
 
#24 · (Edited)
Thanks everyone for the advice & suggestions! We had her adjusted by a chiropractor the other day. She was out in her left poll, left c5, left c6, left mid & lower wither, left mid thoracic and left hip was high. I left her alone for a few days and hopped on her today. I lunged her first and did not see the weirdness i saw before with her movement. wish i had gotten a video I totally forgot. Hopped on and she was much more pleasant. She was actually more than happy to canter. She did buck a little to the right, but not sure if that's just because she hasn't been ridden in a few weeks. There were a few times during our ride where she did do some ear pinning, but much less and a big step up from cantering around with her ears flat on the back of her head. also not sure if it's just her being a mare. If she continues to act funny at the canter I will have a vet do further tests.

Chiro was super cool to watch. Before he adjusted her he ran his hand down her spine and her whole back dipped in and right after the adjustment she had no reaction to her back being pressed on.
 
#26 ·
Seems I'll be having the vet out. She is no longer sore to the touch but she's still acting weird in the canter. I moved her into the smaller arena and she just is NOT wanting to canter smaller circles to the right. She will canter to the left all day but as soon as I ask on the right she will pin her ears back, buck, and then canter side ways on the left lead & buck again when I ask her to turn. So I think there's definitely something wrong with her beyond soreness :(
 
#27 ·
Ok so update:

Vet came out and said she is back sore, in the lumbar region, if i'm remembering that term correctly. He thinks she may have kicked out and strained it while on trial, maybe in the pasture with the other horses. She is getting bute daily and stall rest for two weeks. Then he said lunge her & hop on her in 2 weeks and see what she does. He did a lameness test and she came back totally sound. He thinks maybe the other vet had agitated her a lot by pressing on her back so when she went to test her legs she was ****** and was giving her an angry response. So I am very optimistic and hoping back soreness is all this is!
 
#28 ·
Emily, a very similar thing happened to my mare one time. We went on a camping trip and when we came back she just wasn't the same. Chiro came out and did a few stretching exercises with her and suggested daily bute and rest for 2 to 3 weeks. Worked like a charm. Hope this is all your girl needs as well. She's a beauty! Please let us know how it goes.
 
#31 ·
hmm, I have been thinking about getting a new half pad. It seems I've tried every single one under the sun, including the very expensive ones lol. Do they make an equivalent of this for english?

I'm thinking I need something shimmable, but I don't really know how to utilize shims. She has high-ish withers and very little topline, so it does almost give her a swayback look. Do I put more shims in the back so it lifts the saddle to the height of her withers?
 
#30 ·
My mare was also still stiff on one lead in a circle after chiro. I tried joint supplements and they seemed to alleviate the problem.

However, after doing quite a bit of research and reading I have come to believe that true circles (meaning not ovals) are very hard on the horse and are a lot of wear and tear on more things than just the joints. Just something to keep in mind.

After she has had her recovery period, hill work and the varying terrain in trail riding is (IMO) the best thing to strengthen a horse (or human!), especially in the back and hindquarters.
 
#32 ·
Thanks for the info! I can't really get her to do very neat circles anyway, lol. I mostly do figure 8's and so they end up being more "oval" shaped. I'm in Florida and we have absolutely no hills, unfortunately. There are some trails around. Maybe I'll be brave enough to go alone one day. Unfortunately no one seems to leave the barn where I board, and I'm a little nervous to go by myself as you have to walk alongside a busy road to get to the trails. Cars don't really bother her, but people around here are jerks and will beep the horn or rev their engines to intentionally try to spook the horse.

I am thinking about purchasing the Pessoa lunging system, although I've heard good and bad about it. I was a working student for an eventer for a little while and she used it. It seemed to work really well, especially for the greenies, but after reading some things online I'm a little wary of it. Seems like it would help build her topline and make her use herself more without me failing to ask her correctly under saddle.
 
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