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Too skinny?

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  • Does "fat cat" supplement horses too hyper
  • Fatcat supplement pony

 
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    03-29-2009, 12:55 PM
  #21
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ82Sky    
Glad to hear that you've started longing him to build topline and proper muscling! That should help a ton!
Yea the longing is already helping, he is softer and more responsive (and less crazy) when I ride him.
     
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    03-29-2009, 10:15 PM
  #22
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by stadiumjumper101    
Yea the longing is already helping, he is softer and more responsive (and less crazy) when I ride him.
very glad to hear! And like I said in your other thread - not passing judgement on your trainer - as I do not know them - and i'm happy to hear you are already making progress! I'm sure that you will improve by leaps and bounds as you keep working at this!
     
    03-29-2009, 11:53 PM
  #23
Green Broke
He doesn't look thin, but he does need topline muscle.

Keep in mind that TBs are NOT supposed to be "big" or "beefy." TBs are lean, mean, running machines. Think of a greyhound dog.

Sweet feed is definitely not good for a TB. Oats are okay when he's in heavy competition or training, but not needed for weight gain during rest or light work (2-3 days, an hour or less per day).

Sweet feed is full of starch and sugar. Those things are high energy. High energy increases metabolism. High metabolism burns more calories, which makes the horse need more food to keep weight on. It's a vicious cycle.

To put on weight, here's what I would feed him:
  • Free choice hay, even if they're grass out
  • 6 qts (2- 3qt feed scoops, about 4-5 lbs) of Alfalfa pellets
  • 1 cup of stabilized rice bran or 1 cup of milled flax (good fat source)
  • Source Focus WT (probiotic/supplement for weight gain)
  • Select II or other similar vitamin supplement (for horses on no fortified feed, all I have tried worked well)
  • IF he's getting worked hard, no more than 3 qts (3 lbs) of Oats, but they're really optional.
You can add some water or a splash of oil to make it all stick together. Water works well; that's what I use.

Alfalfa is high in amino acids, which help build quality muscle. It also has good nutrition and quality calories, without all the sugar and starch.

Once he's up to a good weight, you can cut out the Source Focus WT and cut the fat supplement in half (1/2 cup). You can also reduce the Alfalfa pellets to 3-4 qts if he gets too fat.

My Anglo Arabian gelding (TBxArab, 15.3h) was a "hard keeper" when we first got him. We poured all kinds of food in him trying to put on weight and keep it there. We tried supplements, feeds, you name it! What finally worked as taking him OFF all of the extras, and just giving him quality hay, hay pellets, vitamins, and some fat. NO GRAINS. He became easier to work with, less spooky on the trail, and just generally "happier." When he works on the lunge or in the round pen, his head is lower and more relaxed, and he still has plenty of energy and "pep" for everything we ask of him.

I do give him plain whole oats when he's working hard, but only 2-3 qts, and only on those days he works hard. If I give him Oats daily, he will become a bit more "hyper". I can see a difference. Over the winter, without any work, he got too fat on just 1.5 lbs (about 2 qts) of alfalfa pellets and 1 cup of flax! (1/2 cup of milled flax is 4 oz by weight) He's now almost as easy of a keeper as my halter bred appy/qh mare, lol. I've had to cut back on their hay and flax down to 1/2 cup (2 OZ!)...

Give the new diet 30 days before you pass judgement. Be sure he's got access to hay along with his grass, so he's always nibbling on something.

I know, it sounds backwards to take a horse OFF feed to put weight on, but just trust my on this. It worked for 5 different horses at the last boarding facility I was at, and helped many others stabilize their weight and improve their attitudes. ALL of the horses at the facility improved in some way.

Here, here's a picture of both horses when they first came to my house. They grazed the pasture down quick (it's only 0.7 acres), so their weight was all put on with hay, alfalfa pellets, and flax. They put on weight in less than 2 months, and then ended up too fat, even with the pretty cold winter we had.


My Anglo is the one on the right. His belly is hanging down a bit due to lack of work, but he was just as ribby as my mare on the left.

Here they are a couple of weeks ago, modeling some saddles (new one for my daughter). Granted, they have not had ANY work over the winter, and were total mud balls before I brought them up.



Hopefully I'll have better photos once their hair all sheds out, lol. They both look like a couple of mules above...

Anyhow, just try it! The diet I gave has PLENTY of calories for your boy, plus fat, so he definitely won't lose any weight. Plus you should save some money once he's at a good weight. He will be able to hold his weight on a lot less food than you might think possible .
     
    03-29-2009, 11:55 PM
  #24
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ82Sky    
I'd be careful with corn as it generates heat as digested and can cause colic in horses due to the hard nature to digest. We've used it in the winter in small amounts to help horses generate heat on really cold days (in conjunction with lots and lots of hay).
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs3243#Corn

Quote:
Myth: "Corn and Barley Are 'Heating' Feeds."

Corn and barley are sometimes favoured as winter feeds because they are mistakenly thought of as "heating feeds." If "hot" implies high energy, yes, corn and barley are "hot feeds." However, corn and barley are not "hot feeds" if "hot" implies heat production.



Heat is produced in the process of digesting, absorbing and metabolizing any feed. And this heat is useful for helping the horse to maintain its body temperature in cold weather. The greatest amount of heat produced during digestion comes from the breakdown of fibre by the microorganisms living in the horse's large intestine. The higher a feed's fibre content, the more heat produced during digestion. Therefore, more heat would be produced from the digestion of high fibre feeds like hay or beet pulp, compared to heat produced from digesting low fibre grains like corn, barley or wheat. Although low in fibre, even oats produce about 25% more heat during digestion than other grains because of the fibrous hull surrounding the oat kernel.



You can still feed corn or barley in the winter because they contain lots of energy, and energy needs are certainly increased during cold weather as the horse battles the elements. However, if you want to help the horse produce more body heat, feed more hay.
     
    03-30-2009, 12:00 AM
  #25
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by stadiumjumper101    
I was wondering because I've heard it referred to as a sweet feed before, I love it because my horse always has a lovely coat when its being fed. I actually worked hard trying to find the perfect balance and amount of feed, since I'm in Pony Club, I have tons of wonderful resources from the other members and the manuals (especially the upper level ones have tons of good feeding advice) and I have weighed all of his feed carefully. He is getting what's within the range of healthy for a 1500 lbs horse in moderate work, I was just worried that because he is a poor doer, he might need a lil something extra. I'm going to get the Fat Cat and the muscle builder, also I just started loungeing him regularly last week so I should start to see some improvement. When I bought him, he had no topline OR butt!!
Ahh, yes, TC Complete is not a sweet feed. A sweet feed is one that contains molasses, gooey feed, with other grains and possibly a pellet.

TC Complete is one of the better ones out there, though I still might try my grain-free diet if you don't see much improvement.

Fat-Cat can make some horses hyper, so watch that. Your horse should be getting plenty of fat and amino acids with the TC.

I also agree with nixing the oats if you continue to feed TC and switch to alfalfa or alfalfa/blend hay pellet. You'll get better nutrition and less "hyper".
     
    03-30-2009, 08:15 AM
  #26
Started
Molasses do not make or break a sweet feed the "grains" do that ... COB is has NO molasses but it is still a sweet feed...
     
    03-30-2009, 09:58 AM
  #27
Started
Thanks for the updates on corn! So it produces more energy and can make a horse "hot" in the figurative sense, but not the literal one...never knew that!
     
    03-30-2009, 10:19 AM
  #28
Foal
I agree that he does look a little thin. With the amount you are feeding him, either he was a VERY high matabolism, or it could indeed be healthy related. When was the last time you had his teeth checked? Also, you can try soaked shreded beat pulp. It is a wonderful tool for helping to gain and maintain weight. Red Cell might help as well. It is normally a supplement for bone healthy, it will also slick a horses winter coat off, but it is a High Protien Supplement that will build muscle and weight as well. Its widly used in halter horses for all of its various attributes. Please keep us posted on his condition.
     
    03-30-2009, 10:41 AM
  #29
Started
Actually there are studies showing that red cell does NOTHING on it own.. I would have to search for them again but most knowledge vets will now tell you NOT to use it
     
    03-30-2009, 01:41 PM
  #30
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggysue    
molasses do not make or break a sweet feed the "grains" do that ... COB is has NO molasses but it is still a sweet feed...
Dry COB doesn't have molasses in it, and I have never heard of it called a sweet feed... I've heard it called a mixed grain or a textured feed, but never a sweet feed.

There is Wet COB, which is COB with molasses.
     

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