What's your view on training young Thoroughbreds for racing? - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 50 Old 04-07-2009, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mayfieldk View Post
sarah murphy,

In my experience (which is decent, since I live in NJ and we are a hotspot for standard bred racing too!) the two are not the same.

You think people that can spend $100,000 on a yearling that has a 30% chance of actually making it are worried about feeding it for a couple of years???seriously?

Yes. Take an economics class. If an owner puts out 100,000 (which is somewhat 'basement bottom price' for a racehorse considered for the kentucky derby or other high class races), they want to put as LITTLE as possible out to get the best return. ...Why would you want to shell out 30,000 dollars for two to three extra years if you didn't have to? Just because people have money doesn't mean they want to just throw it away! The idea that they 'wouldn't care' about the money it costs to have a horse boarded, trained, and vetted at those kind of facilities is completely ludacrious. Of course they care--the sport is ABOUT money, not the horses. The difference in starting them is probably around 30,000, if not more. And that's 30,000 that an owner could have in his pocket.

I am talking about standardbreds! And 100,000 for a yearling is not bottom price, at all. And I never said owners do not care if they spend money I said there is not much difference between in cost between starting a 1 year old or a two year old. If they didnt race untill 3 years of age, alot of the yearling sales would end, and owners would start purchasing more at the two year old sale, making that extra year a moot point. As they would not have the horse for that extra year.

And I am correct, in saying that the industry that creates the "grassroots series" the "little brown jug" the "red mile" all races made for 2-4 year old horses is the root of the problem!

Why would they make races for older horses if all of the trainers are shipping out 2-3 year olds? It's not even about speed--an older more experienced horse will almost always beat a younger talented one, so that's not in the equation either. This is when trainers are marketing their horses. This is a sport about money and times, not about horses--so it is always going to cater in this direction.

Again, all the above mentioned races are for horses aged 2 - 4 years of age. Meaning if they switched the qualifying age to 3 years old, trainers would not be "shipping"out 2 year old horses. The horses would get that extra year to mature before hitting the race track. If they did not have 2 year old races, there would be more sound horses at 3 because we would not have to start training at 1!!! I really don't understand what part of this you can't understand?????? To take a horse out of a field and train them down to race, if everything goes well and the horse stays sound, it take about 6 to 9 months. The yearlings would get to play in the pastures with the other babies for an extra year before ever seeing a harness.

'And one more thing.....to say that trainers in thoroughbred and standardbred racing do not care if the horses break down as long as they make money first, is about the stupidest statement I have heard.'

Then I suppose you don't understand this industry!

Then I suppose you should "quote" the rest of my statement instead of deleting the reason why I believe trainers care about their horses. Don't edit my words to suit yourself.

Look at Smarty Jones, love. Prime example. That horse raced for two years and made plenty of money. The owners retired him sound. THE MONEY IS IN THE BREEDING. Not the racing! Standardbreds are often raced longer; but they do not bring in as much money in the breeding shed as a horse like Storm Cat would. So again, don't be as quick to compare.

What is the difference between a standardbred racing at 2 and a thoroughbred racing at 2??????? They are both too young in my opinion

There is no need for a horse to run longer then two-three years, which is why if the horse breaks down, it isn't a big deal. They run hard, run fast, make as much money as possible, and are then retired. This isn't about watching your horse race until he's done with it for the sporting aspect of it ;) If all of the trainers cared as much as you claim they do, then they'd stop running and breaking these horses down at 1! MONEY. It's all about Money.

We have no choice but to start training at 1 as they need to be ready to race at 2. 2 year old races is where the money is. Would it make sense to skip all the big money races because you don't feel right about it? YES! But are owners going to purchase horses for you to train, knowing you refuse to race them as two year olds, meaning they miss the chance of alot of money? NO! So tell me, if you are a horse trainer and you make your living training and racing horses, are you going to race them???YES! Or there is no point to being in this buisness.

And of course it's about money! Why else would people be willing to spend thousands of dollars every year if they had no chance of making any of that back??? It costs money to buy your horse, it costs money to care and train and race your horse, and you hope your horse has what it takes to win you some of that back! I've have never said that it wasnt about money, so I don't know who you are talking too?

Don't get me wrong, there are some trainers out there that love the sport and love the horses (Like Eight Belles jockey: A quote on what he said about the vets putting her down on the track: "They had to take us down." us!), but we're talking about the majority here.
remember I'm am talking about standardbred racing, so all these thoroughbred names you are throwing around like you actually know them, mean nothing to me! I know how I treat my horses and have been to just about every track in ontario for years. My whole family, breeds, owns, and trains standardbreds. I have worked for quite a few top trainers in ontario and I have never seen someone not caring if their horse makes it past 3 or 4 years of age. Maybe things are different in the states, but in ontario we have programs like the OSAS who help find homes for our horses that can not race anymore and we do care about the life of their racing career!
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post #32 of 50 Old 04-07-2009, 06:58 PM
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remember to keep this friendly and not use lots of bold and caps :)

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post #33 of 50 Old 04-07-2009, 08:05 PM
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kchfuller, I never said you or anyone else should or should not do anything. I said if people support the current system with money theres no reason for that system to change. What you or anyone else chooses to do is your and their business.
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post #34 of 50 Old 04-08-2009, 12:10 AM
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country- I wasn't saying you were saying that, I was just wondering what your idea is/was... not supporting them I understand but providing a better home for the horses I agree with :)

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post #35 of 50 Old 04-08-2009, 02:41 AM
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Before I start anything, I'm going to copy and paste the title of the topic:
What's your view on training young Thoroughbreds for racing?

Thoroughbreds, not standardbreds, first off. I do not doubt you know about standardbreds. I also know that is not what this topic is about, nor what I am talking and referring to.

Again, all the above mentioned races are for horses aged 2 - 4 years of age. Meaning if they switched the qualifying age to 3 years old, trainers would not be "shipping"out 2 year old horses. The horses would get that extra year to mature before hitting the race track. If they did not have 2 year old races, there would be more sound horses at 3 because we would not have to start training at 1!!! I really don't understand what part of this you can't understand?????? To take a horse out of a field and train them down to race, if everything goes well and the horse stays sound, it take about 6 to 9 months. The yearlings would get to play in the pastures with the other babies for an extra year before ever seeing a harness.

First of all, this is a friendly forum so try not to talk like I'm stupid because you cannot read and assess my points. Someone owns the babies whilst they're young, and they sell them at yearling sales because, AGAIN, this is how you get the best return for your investment. I understand your point love, but in the TB racing world, that is not how it works. The owner that only breeds and sells yearlings isn't going to want to sell them at 2 years old, no matter when the races are ran. To think that yearling sales are held BECAUSE of 2-year-old-races is absurd. They're held because the quicker the owner/breeder sells them, the more money that is made. Holding a baby for an extra year becomes a LOT of money very quickly, because it takes just as much money to house and feed a bad baby as it does a good one--and 'breaking even' is not what these breeders are after!

Same with the races. Quicker return, which is why they are run young. Why would the trainers want to hold onto a horse for 4-5 years to FINALLY start making money with it in big races? You're missing the point that is here. The races for the money are all at the 2-3 range, yes. But this is BECAUSE this best suites the trainers and owners!

'Then I suppose you should "quote" the rest of my statement instead of deleting the reason why I believe trainers care about their horses. Don't edit my words to suit yourself.'

I didn't, I was shortening because that was your point. I didn't change that, to my knowledge. I just took out your reasoning. If the point made does not stand alone, then perhaps it is not a very good point!

remember I'm am talking about standardbred racing, so all these thoroughbred names you are throwing around like you actually know them, mean nothing to me!

Then please stop putting your thoughts in on this thoroughbred board. The 'names I threw out' were Smarty Jones (winner of Kentucky Derby and the Preakness), Storm Cat (The stud with the highest stud fee and has been that way for MANY MANY years) and Eight Belles, the mare that broke down during a triple crown race. These are all big-name, well-known horses even outside of the TB world. Just because you are unaware, shows your inability to speak as a informed individual on the TB Racing subject.

I have no doubt that you know worlds more then me about standardbred racing. But the two are very different (especially in the amount of money they bring in), and was not what the OP asked about.

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post #36 of 50 Old 04-08-2009, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by county View Post
And your freind and others who buy those horses help support the system by giving an outlet for those horses and funds to keep the next crop going.
I suppose county but it beat having him euthanized or shipped off to some slaughter house in Canada because his owner didn't think he was winning enough. She paid next to nothing for him more or less he was dumped off any less he would have been free so other than what the owner would have been out in upkeep on him he certainly didn't make anything off the sale.

Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway~~John Wayne
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post #37 of 50 Old 04-08-2009, 09:25 AM
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Horses racing young

I totally agree and thinks its unethical to race them at 2 yrs. They are still not fully developed and its really hard on them. I don't understand why, as many of you have said, that they at least wait and race at 3-4. The conditioning would be longer and it wouldnt tax them so much.

Its greed...thats how I see it. I love racing-Ive participated-but I just don't agree in the age these horses are asked to do incredible tasks.

As a horse runs, think of it as a game of tag with the wind
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post #38 of 50 Old 04-08-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by smrobs View Post
Exactly. It is all about money. Although starting them before they are 2 is way too young especially for such a stressful sport, it is not the only reason for the horses who break down. Just think, the cannon bone on a horse is not much different in diameter than the human long bones but they generally carry 8 to 10 times more weight and compound that with the force of running 40 mph, that is a lot of pounds per square inch on such small bones. Most papered horses in every breed have been bred down so much that they have these tiny bones and crappy feet and hereditary conditions that should never have been allowed to be bred in the first place. TB's are bred for smaller bones and flatter feet because it makes them more aerodynamic and so they can run faster, the breeders don't care about longevity, they care about speed. Trying to break speed records constantly and doing whatever they think they have to to do it. For me, the TB breed reached it's peak with Secretariat and has been going down ever since. Wow, sorry to get way off topic. Back on..... Yes, if they would wait until they are 3 and 4 to back them and no racing until they were 5, you would see lots more TB's winning and fewer getting hurt and they would be running longer. Instead of being retired at 4 and 5 after just a couple of years racing, we would see horses being retired after 10 when they have been running for 5 or 6 years. There are very few who are able to race into their older years and remain sound, but they do exist.
I was just having a conversation about this yesterday with my boyfriend. There's a lady at his work who has to weigh at least 250, if not 300 pounds. She's a 'horse trainer,' and she has a bunch of quarter horses. The tallest one is about 16(?) hands. She never warms them up or anything, she just hops on them and takes off at a dead run. She does high-impact events like roping, barrel racing, and pole bending. I feel so sorry for her horses.

My horse is a draft cross, and she's not that tall, but she's very stout compared to a 'normal' horse. You can see how thick her legs are by looking at these pictures:
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...cy/Lacy1-1.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...r16_0002-1.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020514.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020526.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...deo0221093.jpg

I feel bad riding her sometimes, and I only weigh like 140, maybe 150 fully clothes with boots, helmet, etc... I don't now how people don't feel bad riding horses so young, or horses that are obviously too small for them.
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post #39 of 50 Old 04-08-2009, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mayfieldk View Post
Lol. Racing isn't that big in the US, County. Please do your research. The money is in the BREEDING, and since people over seas will still throw RIDICULOUS amounts of money down on untried yearlings (like 8 million or other crazy numbers!), the TBs will stay and be raced even if they don't get that much money on the actual races, because babies will still sell and stallions will still breed.

There practically is no one betting now, especially with the economy. ;)

Skippy!,

There is some crazy crap in the AQHA world. I can kind of see their ruling though--if you bought a baby to show and THEN realized that it was N/H, it's not fair to you to not be able to show it--you didn't breed it. I must agree, something has to be done to start to limit the N/H horses. Invest in Vital Signs, a BIG name pleasure horse winning furturities and congress titles, is N/H. And they're still breeding him! ARGH. I wonder if they charged more for a N/H horse to be registered... if that would convince people to stop breeding them?
I think I remember reading in HI that all horses born during or after 2007 must be N/N to be registered. Can anyone confirm this?
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post #40 of 50 Old 04-08-2009, 01:46 PM
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country- what is your alternative? If they don't sell them they would kill them and that isn't ok with me. I saved to ottb's and I would do it again a million time if I could. I don't get what point you are trying to make...
It's like buying a puppy from a pet store to 'save' it. Yes, you're helping that 1 puppy, but you're also encouraging the puppy mills to breed even more dogs.
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