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Who likes to quiz themselves on X-rays?

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  • Xray images of arthritic changes in pedal and pastern bones

 
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    04-17-2011, 12:03 AM
  #11
Yearling
Dang it my response didn't post!!! The angle looks better with the pads.. how is he feeling? I seconded Bntnail...except guessed left because, to me, there looked like there might possibly be navicular degeneration but that's almost impossible to tell from the side angle but the joint spaces don't look fantastic either. Is he on any joint supplements?
     
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    04-17-2011, 12:55 AM
  #12
Super Moderator
Well, thought I didnt' explain it very well, what I saw was exactly what you described as the issue.! I must have got lucky.
My friend's lease horse is coming up lame lately and someone else noticed how flat his heels were on the rear , especially. She said that the horn tubules were growing much too close to parallel to the ground, and should be about 50 degrees upright . So, like your horse, it stresses the ligaments of the canon, even the hock and even causes pelvic/back trouble as the horse moves incorrectly , while compensating and trying to avoid the pain. This person said the hrose needed wedges under those heels, just like the photo. I have forwarded the link to your thread, I hope you don't mind.

Did you get any idea from the vet/farrier how long before the horse would not be sore or lame, once the corrective shoeing is done? I mean, I think some comfort is immediate. And what is the long term prognosis?
Do you know how the horse got this way? I am reeally looking to learn as much as I can about this problem.
     
    04-17-2011, 02:09 AM
  #13
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by starlinestables    
Dang it my response didn't post!!! The angle looks better with the pads.. how is he feeling? I seconded Bntnail...except guessed left because, to me, there looked like there might possibly be navicular degeneration but that's almost impossible to tell from the side angle but the joint spaces don't look fantastic either. Is he on any joint supplements?
She's doing better--the vet watched the most recent video and said she looks good, for what that's worth. Yeah, we're on a joint supplement, fortified feed, just finished a seven-dose course of Adequan, blah blah blah. In short, doing everything right and STILL having problems. :roll:
I think some of the navicular changes/ bone density/ arthritis problems people see are artifacts of the image. The pictures I posted are digital photos of X-rays printed out on cheap computer paper....so not so high quality. When we've had view done of the navicular bone in the past, it shows mild changes consistent with a nine-year-old performance horse, but nothing to suggest serious degeneration or true navicular disease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
Well, thought I didnt' explain it very well, what I saw was exactly what you described as the issue.! I must have got lucky.
My friend's lease horse is coming up lame lately and someone else noticed how flat his heels were on the rear , especially. She said that the horn tubules were growing much too close to parallel to the ground, and should be about 50 degrees upright . So, like your horse, it stresses the ligaments of the canon, even the hock and even causes pelvic/back trouble as the horse moves incorrectly , while compensating and trying to avoid the pain. This person said the hrose needed wedges under those heels, just like the photo. I have forwarded the link to your thread, I hope you don't mind.
Don't mind at all. The hoof is so so so important....the old-timers sure were right on that count. I almost didn't want to spring for radiographs this time, because after all the repeated injuries, I didn't see what could be gained. Dang, am I glad I did. And so whenever money is available, I always recommend people to get the most thorough diagnostics done and as early as possible.

Quote:
Did you get any idea from the vet/farrier how long before the horse would not be sore or lame, once the corrective shoeing is done? I mean, I think some comfort is immediate.
Some improvement did occur immediately. But keep in mind we don't know exactly what is wrong. We just know two things: 1. Horse is lame. 2. Radiographs show bad coffin angles. Presumably related, but in what way? I think she tore a ligament/tendon again, but how badly? And would she have shown the same improvement in that acute injury without the shoes? Probably....

You can judge for yourself how she looks now. She was head-bobbing on the 2nd, and here she is on the 11th:


Doc watched and cleared her to ride. We shall see.

Quote:
And what is the long term prognosis?
Ha! Ha ha ha! Your guess is as good as mine! Knowing her, she'll be dead lame again by next weekend.

Quote:
Do you know how the horse got this way?
I don't, and wish I did. We've been doing various forms of corrective shoeing for over a year now, but not always with radiographs to guide. A big part of her problem is that she just won't grow any heel. Genetic predisposition, maybe? To look at her leg conformation, it's really not too shabby.

Quote:
I am reeally looking to learn as much as I can about this problem.
You and me both, sista.
     
    04-17-2011, 11:33 AM
  #14
Weanling
Something that you may consider if you are still having problems and the corrective shoeing isn't working and the hoof continues to slide backwards instead of improve would be barefoot trimming. Google Pete Ramey if interested.

But it will take time to grow out a new hoof if you go the barefoot route. Just consider a year to be a good round time frame. And you will need to get hoof boots with pads. With the boots and pads though you will also be able to go riding while her hoofs regrow.
     
    04-18-2011, 04:12 AM
  #15
Trained
Just had a trimming clinic today and we were looking at radiographs almost exactly the same - Pedal bone is ground parallel.

I know the opinion of many on this forum but I thought i'd throw it out there anyway - I would definitely be barefooting this horse. How long has it been in shoes? Since a young age?

Can't grow heel - That if nothing else would tell me this horse should go barefoot. The landing gear needs to be stimulated through use - it won't be stimulated to grow if it not being used properly/functionally.
     
    04-18-2011, 08:44 AM
  #16
Banned
Been in shoes a long time except for a six month spell when we tried barefoot. Her feet just fell apart. Even though she was on stall rest for an injury at the time, her wall was chipped all to hell and she was extremely sore for about a week following every trim. And she's been on a hoolf supplement for a couple years, too.

Even if she could *eventually* benefit from barefoot, I don't think we could risk what would happen during the transition time, with her low heels and thin sole. What would that do to her soft tissue, old injuries, and coffin bones?
     
    04-18-2011, 11:07 AM
  #17
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubba13    
What would that do to her soft tissue, old injuries, and coffin bones?
With a barefoot trim, if you were to use boots and pads. "Which would be a necessity in this scenario." The horse would benefit, so long as it got enough movement. If you do the barefoot trim and the horse doesn't get any movement then there won't be any benefit.

The barefoot trim is important to have the correct breakover and such. But you also need heel first landings. And the movement to stimulate the rear of the hoof so that it can develop. Without the movement all ya have is a good trim.

If you get serious about it then I would suggest doing some research. Pete Ramey knows his stuff.
     
    04-18-2011, 11:31 AM
  #18
QHa
Foal
Looked like the coffin bone was too flat.
     
    04-18-2011, 02:31 PM
  #19
Banned
I don't know. My farrier and vet are a good ones, and strong barefoot advocates if the horse doesn't "need" shoes. And they said that she's just one of those horses who does, in fact, need them. I know many people disagree on the relative benefits of shod vs. barefoot, but I have to go with my vet and farrier's recommendations, as they have seen the horse in the flesh.
     
    04-18-2011, 06:45 PM
  #20
Trained
Quote:
With a barefoot trim, if you were to use boots and pads. "Which would be a necessity in this scenario." The horse would benefit, so long as it got enough movement. If you do the barefoot trim and the horse doesn't get any movement then there won't be any benefit.

The barefoot trim is important to have the correct breakover and such. But you also need heel first landings. And the movement to stimulate the rear of the hoof so that it can develop. Without the movement all ya have is a good trim.
Completely understand that you want to go with your vet/farriers advice.

Just thought i'd agree with what was said above and mention some stuff we talked about yesterday.

I agree with the boots and pads route - Especially with this horse with her ground parallel pedal bone. She needs to get her caudal foot, the back part that includes the landing gear, stimulated again so it can start to grow/regenerate. The frog, sole, and digital cushion all grow stronger and thicker when stimulated - The more use they get, the quicker and stronger they grow. Conversley, the less they are used, the thinner the sole grows, the more contracted the frog grows, and the digital cushion becomes soft and too squishy, which leads to soreness. When there is soreness in the heels, the horse begins to land toe first - Which is the main cause of navicular. When landing toe first, the concussion traels up the wall and stresses the pastern bones - Especially at one point, I can't remember the name of the bones right now. It also slams the navicular bone - It doesn't receive it's normal cushioning from the digital cushion. As long as there isn't significant damage to the navicular bone, ie. Spurs etc, then it is possible to get an almost complete recovery simply by getting the horse back onto it's heels and re-developing that frog, digital cushion and sole. Or as the lecturer joked - the best way to cure a navicular horse is to give it laminitis - I.e. Getting it off it's toes and back onto it's heels.

Anyway, went on a bit of a tangent there! I know you are doing the best you can for your horse under the advice of poeple you trust. I hope you get the results you are looking for - And if not, I hope you will maybe think about giving barefoot rehab a red hot go. (And that kind of rehab would need a professional experienced in rehabbing chronic lameness, not just a barefoot trimmer. The lecturer has a property here in Aus where he takes horses in with these kinds of issues, complete with rubber laneways, sand yards, and sometimes trimming every few days!).
     

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