A year after foundering... - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 01:47 PM
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Just for some information, the barefoot way: Bare Foot Horse. there's a chapter on founder.
For shoes NANRIC - Your Source for Equine Podiatry Products & Knowledge, articles and videos.

I fought both ways, with shoes, and barefoot. I now prefer the barefoot way, I had better, lasting results. So I'm not judging in anyway, just stating my preference( just to make this clear)
I also found that without adapting environment and nutrition, neither way works.
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post #12 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 01:54 PM
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Looking at the photos makes me feel like he had more going on. Has he been sick, had a fever? His new growth looks stressed.
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post #13 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 03:17 PM
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Iam currently dealing with a founderd horse he is barefoot and wears hoof boots with pads in them. I cant imagine having a farrier nail on shoes. My boy would probley kill the farrier and me in the process.

Diet is important as is his environment iv learned these things here in the last few months. Of course it hasnt been a year for my horse yet. My horse is just now to were hes walking better but still sore.

Worth looking into to the site DHW posted very good site with good info.
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post #14 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 04:13 PM
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My mare foundered very, very badly 3 years ago. I took a lot of weight off, put her on a dry lot with low NSC feed, stabilized her with barefoot trimming and boots, and she has been moderately sound since, but I still had tall, fast-growing heels and on and off ouchy soles. My vet says that I am still not getting enough blood flow in to grow sole and toe still, so we put on glue on shoes from NANRIC with the help of digital x-rays. My mare is a lot more comfortable right now, but it remains to be seen how much they'll help in the long run. Your guy reminds me of what my mare looks like, except that I still have rotation. That is what makes me say that your problem could be lack of blood flow still, causing a tall heel and thin sole, which makes a sore horse. In that case, you have to change what you're doing to try to restore blood flow. You can guess and try a new shoe or trim, or add padding under your shoes and see if it helps. You could also do a venogram to see if you have good blood flow. DHW has posted some good references. I have used both. I hope your guy gets to feeling better.

Tug on anything at all and you'll find it connected to everything else in the universe.~John Muir
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post #15 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 04:54 PM
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If I look at these feet, I still see rotation. One more than the other. I see a shortened toe, but no proper breakover.
My first foundered horse was chronic, couldn't find a capable farrier for nearly two years( was not here in the US). Then finally I found one who was pretty close to Dr. Redden's school of thought. Her toes were chopped off( literally. I was holding hands with my vet lol). Heel taken down as far as possible, going by the x-rays, then a custom made shoe put on, two nails in each side only, slight wedge, open front. She was immediately better. I was to walk her in the arena to learn that she wasn't hurting anymore. 15 minutes daily. First time, after 5 minutes she started dancing, snorting and blowing, wanting to take off. I had my hands full. She was cleared to go in her paddock. After two weeks, she launched, again literally, a shoe. That became a monthly occurance. If this farriers wouldn't have allowed an apprentice to work on her and would have seen that he did a bad job, I would be able to tell you the outcome.
I tried to find another farrier, but was not lucky. She got worse fast. So I started barefoot.
Was getting better with proper trimming, but again, I can't tell the outcome, she passed away from heartfailure( heaves).
My current gelding had a bout of laminitis about 3 months ago( overweight, only alfalfa and oathay available and one day 110 degrees, 12 hours later storm and 55). He was more down than up for about 3 days, I had taped styrofoam under his feet after trimming, coldhosed feet for 3 days, 3 times daily, then he started coming out of the straw- bedded run-in. On his own. My paddock is hard packed dirt, with rocks coming up due to erosion. He now trots on that, slowly, but he trots. In the shed and in front of it where it's a bit softer, he cantered( yes, in the shed lol). All I did was get him off everything remotely sweet, found him grasshay and kept his feet trimmed. No bute, no boots. Just patience. And 24/7 turnout. We're currently fencing in a larger, rock -free turnout for him. Oh yeah, he also never rotated.
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post #16 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 07:02 PM
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My gelding Leo foundered in early April this year (so five months ago), with about 2 degree rotation in the left and 3 degrees in the right hoof.
He was on bute for a week, almost walked normal again and was able to support himself standing on three legs, so the vet gave green light to go ahead with trimming. Unfortunately, the farrier who trimmed him (recommended and quite renown in the area) did a pretty bad job and after that, all hell broke loose. "In principle" he did things right (angles looked better, took back the toe and the heels), but he trimmed him so aggressively and the sole in the toe area was so thin that my gelding could barely walk afterwards. Both soles also bruised massively. We were afraid at first that the farrier damaged the flexor tendons, but luckily that wasn't the case. The soles were so thin and bruised and formed pockets that you could just press in with your finger.

We put him in SoftRide boots immediately, and the recovery was slow and painful for the horse. It took several weeks until he could walk again reasonably well, at which point I changed stables and farriers.
He was on grass hay only, rationed to 2% of bodyweight per day, plus a mineral / vitamin supplement and joint supplement.
In June / July we had about two months of peace and he went out with the herd during the night in a grazing muzzle and was in a dirt paddock during the day. He also lost a lot of weight in those four months and he got trimmed religiously every five weeks.

In the end of July, Leo suddenly was massively lame again on the front left. We called an emergency vet out, unfortunately not our regular vet (who was out of town). The guy was completely useless. He took to the hoof with a hoof tester, which made my gelding whince in pain and almost go down, only to tell me in the end what I already knew (that he had foundered and had a thin sole). He suspected more rotation and the coffin bone coming through the sole, but since he didn't bring an x-ray machine there was no way to confirm that. In the end, all we did was put him back on bute and two days later my gelding was walking reasonably well again.

Leo had two more episodes of lameness after that, both on the front right this time. Our regular vet came out - this time with an x-ray machine, and both the angles as well as the regrowth of the sole looked really good. He suspected circulatory problems and suggested a venigram at the clinic as soon as Leo was well enough to be transported. Back on bute... and nothing worked. Leo was lame and extremely painful for 1.5 weeks, until an abscess blew out at the coronary. Since then it's been going uphill again. He was actually cantering and bucking around in his paddock a few days ago.

Several times during this process, especially when he was in so much pain, I was afraid I would lose him, and was wondering whether I was making the right choice to keep him alive. But so far he's always come out of these episodes. We will see where it goes, but it looks not bad right now.

What I do realize, and what I think everyone with a laminitic horse should be aware of, is that it will probably take a lifelong commitment and dedication that goes well above the "regular" horse ownership (at least the way it's practiced here, where it's quite common to put the horses out in a field and go on vacation for a couple of weeks). My horse is 11 now, and will probably be a high(er) maintenance horse for the rest of his life. It will also be near impossible now to sell him (which I never intended anyways), and there might be times down the road where he can't be ridden. I knew about the risks of founder before, but very honestly, had I been fully aware of the consequences (as in - had I experienced them first hand), I would have been a lot more careful and picky about his boarding and feeding situation before he foundered. It would have saved him a lot of pain and me a lot of tears, heartache, and money...
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post #17 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 07:24 PM
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Abscesses are quite common, there's a lot going on in a laminitic foot.
I agree on the lifelong commitment. But it's not so bad as long as you have control over the management. I have all mine on the same diet now, the non- laminitic get something extra in their bowl, since it's easier to add than to take away lol.
I keep thinking back, 15, 20 years. A laminitic horse was a rarity. And now they seem to pop up all over the place. Why? What did I do different then? Nobody knew about NSC and IR. My horses lived in a drylot, went on pasture during the day, ate grasshay with lots of different species of grass and herbs, and grain, as needed. Never ever a founder episode, and none of them were underweight. So what happened, what is different?????
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post #18 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 08:04 PM
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The diffrence is we over feed. Horses are to fat lack of exercise.then we feed grains that are high NSC. Pastures are to lush and not made for horses but cattle.

Think biggest reason for so many IR and laminitic horses is they are way to fat.we as horse owners are to used to seeing fat horses......NOT good. They need to be lean and fit just like people should be
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post #19 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 08:41 PM
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I don't have any experience trimming a foundered horse and I don't trim hooves for a living....but I will give you some insight into what I'm seeing from those two photos.

Did the x-ray's show any coffin bone remodeling?

First off, I wouldn't allow your trimmer to remove the face of the hoof wall anymore. All that's doing is making that area weak in this situation And if the hoof hits a rock real hard in that area it could cause some bruising. There's just not an excess of material at the toes and I see no benefit to the horse in this situation to be doing this.

The coronet bands are jammed WAY up. There's too much pressure from the hoof walls in contact with the ground, "in this case, shoes", and it's pushing the coronet bands up. That right there alone can cause lots of pain to the horse. The hoof walls need to be relieved down nearly to sole level, and I would be checking for false sole and doing what I can to get it to shed or begin removing it little by little.

The heels are still a bit high and the left one more so than the right. And....the angles of the hooves don't match one another so it's going to cause your horse to travel in a slightly lopsided manner. Imagine running with one foot barefoot and the other one in a high heeled boot. You're gonna become sore.

IMO, it will take less time for the hooves to change back to their normal shape if they are barefoot. It will allow them to flex and relax more, so the excess growth in certain areas can move around and as you see the areas relax and "pop" out you can trim it off. Basically what I'm trying to say is that it will allow you to stay on-top of the hoof trimmings as the hooves are changing shape.

Studying ELPO hoof mapping would be a good idea, even if in this situation there ends up being no need to bring the breakover back into the proper position, it will allow you to know what needs to be done just in case those toes begin to migrate forward as you lower the heels and relieve the hoof walls.

Truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as self evident.

Last edited by totalfreedom; 09-11-2013 at 08:44 PM.
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post #20 of 43 Old 09-11-2013, 08:55 PM
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Well I have such long stories about what I have learned over the past 4 years working with someone who really gets what is going on, so without going into a full blown essay about it it is the environment, the processed feeds, the not so good hay, the grass the horses are put on....believe me it is devastating to learn what I have learned and realize that horses are NOT a domesticated animal but we bring them home, fence them in, think we are giving them what they need, nope, they are individuals ... They have individual needs. In the wild they can pick and choose what they need, they cannot do this in our paddocks. Have you been on Joe Camps website, Paddock Paradise. If not go there. Learn, learn and learn. Read, read and read, he is amazing because he questions everything, learns as much as he can and just does his best for his horses. I hope this helps.
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